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Old 10-09-2010, 11:44 AM
  #901  
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Originally Posted by FlyingViking View Post
Have you (or anyone else) ever flown with anybody who is happy with ALPA? Other than the guys who works for them I sure haven't...

It just dawned on me that we have the EXACT same problem with ALPA that the FAs do with AFA...
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:46 AM
  #902  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
You absolutely benefitted. And you did so at the expense of Delta Air Lines' pilots who were on the seniority list, and furloughed because their flying went to you at ASA. You're in complete denial if you don't see that.
With some different overnights in cities previously served by DAL? Yes, but I lost out on an opportunity to move long. It dried right up.


You got stuck in a dead end job because YOU chose to take that job and KEEP that job for starvation wages. You did this in the hopes of joining a major. A major that YOUR actions were hurting. A profession that YOUR actions were undercutting.
That job was generally a three year job flying props when I got hired. It turned in to a 10 year job due to scope sales, and there being no where to go except a crudy ACMI or overseas.

Back when I was hired, we were flying 30 passenger props. Five jets and a hand full of ATR's. We were not flying 100+ RJ's around. In fact the first RJ sans the BAE was not on property until after I was hired.


Are you seriously that clueless? You lost 6 years of longevity? You're that sure you would have been hired by Delta Air Lines? Or any major airline? I've now decided that I'm mad because of all that longevity I lost at Delta. You know, those years that I was working for somebody else.
You assume that this time around was the first time many new hires interviewed at majors and were hired. You assume that this was the first time anyone applied and interviewed at DAL or anywhere else. That is a wrong assumption. 9-11 and beyond effected many people that were right on the cusp of many major airline jobs.


It was ONLY your choice. This could be the most irresponsible "me generation" post I have ever seen.

Carl
You are right, buy the time C2K was signed I was already in the left seat of a 30 pax turbo prop and well qualified for all major airline jobs. What happened with that scope sale did nothing for my resume or career. All it gave me was a slightly better schedule at an airline I wanted to leave. I did not get furloughed, and that is huge. Many of my friends that came here did. I flew with many of them, and spoke very openly about how crappy of a deal this whole thing was. I actually told my reps the same thing.
Funny thing was that at the time most of them blamed DALPA and not National for the scope sale.
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:47 AM
  #903  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
Everyone I knew there realized what this expansion meant long term.
Yet you, and they, stayed.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
I still do today, and that is why, I implore everyone to not fall in to another "shinny ball" sort of situation.
That is interesting, and it's kind of like the parent child relationship. You want so badly to have your kids learn from your life so they don't make mistakes. But mostly, they don't listen. Old farts like me tried to tell you guys not to fall into the shiney jet syndrome...you didn't listen. Now you "implore everyone" not to fall into it...and they won't listen. Rinse, lather, repeat.

You will understand real pain if we cave again on scope, and you are furloughed. Where will you go?...that's right - the bottom of the seniority list at a regional. That's when you'll really understand.

Carl
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar View Post
Sorry Dragon, but the problem has never been ALPA national. We are the folks who have outsourced our flying.

Read Bill Kessler's scope articles in the Roar from 44, ZipLines and other communications. They explain how and why we got here.

Bar
That is 50% of the equation. The other 50% is the regional pilots that take these jobs only to hold back their own futures.

Carl
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:53 AM
  #905  
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar View Post
I have no problem with their contined service, but would be much more comfortable if they could admit mistakes and develop better policy.
the only problem with this is that the camel just ate my dinner. Nose... tent... I think of ALPA like the TSA fighting the terrorists.. I know.. but work with me here... The bad guys only have to get lucky once. So far, the terrorists have blown up pretty much anything at will...
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:53 AM
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T- We are comparing DPA to ALPA. Like you I do not see what DPA is presenting ergo pro ALPA.

Part of the reason that ALPA invites airlines like SWA, AMR, UPS, FlexJet etc to these events is that by having everyone on the same page for safety, aeromed etc allows a "unified" front. CAL and Fedex where there for a long time too before they came back to ALPA.

As many of these independent pilot groups have told me. We are here because ALPA does it best and we need the best. You are right, they pay though the nose for it, and we would too.

FWIW, we do not hand them the keys, they are just invited to many of the symposiums so that we can share relevant data, and present a unified course on many issues. If ALPA were to be gone, we may get something similar, but I am quite doubtful. Seeing the work first hand on a few committees over the years, I am a believer in many of these programs. Of course that is not where the issue is, it is in the political arm of ALPA.

I am hopeful that this next week is a good week for National with some new blood going in to the ranks.
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
This is a HUGE point. IMO, this WILL happen if we are still with ALPA national.

Carl

Wow.. you really think we can get a 20% raise? And I thought you were a pessimist.
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:58 AM
  #908  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post

I am hopeful that this next week is a good week for National with some new blood going in to the ranks.
Me too.. but after the lobotomies are done.. let's see where we are.
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:01 PM
  #909  
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Yes, Carl I did. I had a job paying 50K a year. My MEC was not fighting to get your flying. It is also the same job that many of the furloughed pilots came back to only this time former LCA's were in the right seat making 20K a year. Sobering reality about the job market. Sobering reality on many levels. Heck there are still Furloughed AMR pilots working at my former airline. Now that one gets me. Heck most of them are mid-level Capt's now.
Fix the scope issue here, and that will solve the problem of pilots like my self getting too comfortable at a regional. It is easy to blame regional pilots for accepting jobs that pay like dirt, but you have to look at what your airline requires to get hired. Most want 121 or military time. It is no longer possible for the majority to fly checks and get hired by Ma DAL. Reduce their scope of flying and you reduce the problem. That is solely the responsibility of the DAL MEC and its pilots. National would never refuse to sign a contract that took back flying. Use the weight our size has to offer.

I though about leaving and looked around. Nothing of value was out there. I know that is not good enough for you, but the simple fact is that no one was fighting DALPA for your flying. At best the regionals were eating each other fighting over the scraps.
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:02 PM
  #910  
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Originally Posted by NERD View Post
Carl,

First, thank you for your passion and engagement. Most guys in your seniority bracket only think of one thing, money. Scope is way down the list for them. Secondly, while I am not thrilled with Alpa, I am equally unthrilled with the names floated around so far with DPA. I would be very interested if certain names from the North side showed up endorsing them. IE former contract admin., former ANC Capt & SO reps, former greenbook R&I guy, etc. NOT former DTW Capt. nor DTW and MSP FO reps.(Ch11 angry 3) I want the smart, rational guys, not the hot headed fire, aim ready types. JMO...
Thanks for the kind words, but most guys in my bracket really do get scope. I flew S/O for guys that were hired in 1939. I learned so much from them and respected them so much. They taught me that Scope is section 1 for a reason...without section 1, the rest of your contract is meaningless.

The real reason senior guys (and junior guys) voted for scope cave-ins was the way it was presented by our union leadership. They said the rest of the industry had it, and our airline needed it to compete. They said management would allow a strike forever to get it because the airline would shut down anyway without it. They portrayed our choices as: Strike, and permanently shutdown the airline because the airline can't compete with scope cave, or give this little bit on scope and "live to fight another day." That was the argument back then. Were we cowardly p*****s for believing it? Yes. Will we ever do it again? I believe not. But that's not the issue anymore. The issue today is our own reps (under direction from ALPA national) renaming scope sales - then signing off on them without MEMRAT.

Carl
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