Delta Pilots Association
10-09-2010, 07:48 PM
#941
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
That is 50% of the equation. The other 50% is the regional pilots that take these jobs only to hold back their own futures.
Carl
Carl
I think you add interesting insight and debate to these forums, however you're debating a disputable point. It's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Admit it or not, we do actually hold jobs which are highly coveted. This not only holds true to regional guys but look at UAL and their "open skies" fiasco. Typed rated 757 pilots, flying for regional wages, not "regional" guys flying "regional" jets.
Hell look at the NFL strike, everybody and their mother came out to realize their boyhood dream of playing on the big turf. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to do. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to work for. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to be paid. What we CAN control is section 1 of our PWA............
10-10-2010, 12:13 AM
#942
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Rather B Fishin
Carl,
I think you add interesting insight and debate to these forums, however you're debating a disputable point. It's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Admit it or not, we do actually hold jobs which are highly coveted. This not only holds true to regional guys but look at UAL and their "open skies" fiasco. Typed rated 757 pilots, flying for regional wages, not "regional" guys flying "regional" jets.
Hell look at the NFL strike, everybody and their mother came out to realize their boyhood dream of playing on the big turf. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to do. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to work for. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to be paid. What we CAN control is section 1 of our PWA............
I think you add interesting insight and debate to these forums, however you're debating a disputable point. It's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Admit it or not, we do actually hold jobs which are highly coveted. This not only holds true to regional guys but look at UAL and their "open skies" fiasco. Typed rated 757 pilots, flying for regional wages, not "regional" guys flying "regional" jets.
Hell look at the NFL strike, everybody and their mother came out to realize their boyhood dream of playing on the big turf. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to do. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to work for. We CANNOT control what another pilot is willing to be paid. What we CAN control is section 1 of our PWA............
Carl
10-10-2010, 12:15 AM
#943
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Rather B Fishin
Carl,
I think you add interesting insight and debate to these forums, however you're debating a disputable point.
I think you add interesting insight and debate to these forums, however you're debating a disputable point.
Carl
10-10-2010, 02:32 AM
#944
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
T- even if someone you do not want elected get the top job, I say give em a chance before throwing them to the wolves. I may not get who I want, but that does not mean I will not give the new president a few months to see if they can change a few things.
I have two guys I would be happy with, and one I would be disgusted with. I am willing to see where this process leads. I trust my reps who are there this week.
I have two guys I would be happy with, and one I would be disgusted with. I am willing to see where this process leads. I trust my reps who are there this week.
Anybody short of Lech Walesa, and nothing changes. Book it.
10-10-2010, 02:44 AM
#945
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Interesting how this article (at least the part you posted... I haven't gone to the link to read the full article) leaves the impression that the SLI is at least part of the impetus for pursuing new representation. Kinda sounds like they're trying to draw a comparison to the situation at US Airways. The problem with that is that I haven't heard or seen a single reference to the SLI as a reason to leave ALPA and go to DPA. I don't think this is about the SLI at all. From what I've seen, I think it is about a conflict of interest, a desire to have all our dues money and all our efforts in support of Delta pilots, and a desire to pursue restoration of our profession (and not be afraid to say it).
I dont think it is about the SLIin the way USAPA was about SLI, but in addition to all of the things you mentioned, I think there is an element of non-DOH dissatisfaction that is behind DPA.
10-10-2010, 05:05 AM
#946
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
What we can also control is the response to said pilots who lament that their own actions lost them 6 years of longevity at a major to which they had not yet been hired. We can control the response to said regional pilot who says they had no other choice. We can control the response to said regional pilot who says his actions played no role and the fault lays entirely with the major pilots who gave away scope. The blame is 50/50. To say anything else is to shirk responsibility.
Carl
Carl
10-10-2010, 05:42 AM
#947
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Interesting how this article (at least the part you posted... I haven't gone to the link to read the full article) leaves the impression that the SLI is at least part of the impetus for pursuing new representation. Kinda sounds like they're trying to draw a comparison to the situation at US Airways. The problem with that is that I haven't heard or seen a single reference to the SLI as a reason to leave ALPA and go to DPA. I don't think this is about the SLI at all. From what I've seen, I think it is about a conflict of interest, a desire to have all our dues money and all our efforts in support of Delta pilots, and a desire to pursue restoration of our profession (and not be afraid to say it).
Well 88, this is from the AJC and one of DAL's tried and true reporters. She got the quotes. Just because something is not posted as one of the reasons there is a movement does not mean that it is not part of it.
Carl;
I beleive others have argued my following retorts to you on that subject.
As for the root problem. You have distorted some of the reality of DCI. Go Jets, Republic (all of em) and Mesa would be where your angst should be focused. Republic in particular (present day) Not on the regionals of the mid 90's that had fewer pilots than one seat in one base at a Delta. They were in check until guys sold scope to keep FAE up. It bit them in the butt. Now there is no need to worry about a FAE, and pension. It is still about scope. You were a pilot that voted in some of NWA scope sales. As vocal as you are why could you not change the minds of your fellow co workers.
10-10-2010, 07:56 AM
#948
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
The FAE system may indeed have been a major driver of scope sales, and of course that methodology for retirement is long gone. Its exciting that the UAL/CAL guys are ratteling their sabers over Scope and its actual reversal. Although just in the "opener" the fact that its there and a top emphasis item is encouraging. The fact that they have 1500 or so of their brethern on furlough is huge as well. Ditto for AA, although they don't have the urgency of a merger to contend with (yet) management on an industry wide basis will IMHO have a hard time even putting scope relief on the table at any other legacy. Delta will be the front lines because the debate will be framed in a similar manner it was back during the C2K days.
Everything's fine, we want top pay, etc. Well here you go...just sign here and you will be top pay! Wait what's all this scope relief? Oh that, well you see, it will result in more mainline not less so you can't afford not to outcource! You know, that whole arguement.
As for LM not being tough enough right now, I don't think we need a Dubinsky approach one bit. I don't expect him or anyone in his position to, especially at this point, talk about burning it all down if necessary to get 1970's pay adjusted for inflation, triple dipping vacation scams, check airman buddy bidding green slip years and other fantasy featherbedding. I don't expect him to say we will strike the shareholders if we don't get 50% raises, blah blah blah. But I do expect all in upper ALPA/DALPA leadership to publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that scope sales are over and in fact, scope reversal to some significant degree WILL occur.
The entire aviation industry is wondering about the future of the 77-120 seat market at Delta Air Lines and every other legacy. Union leaders pretending that this issue is somehow too taboo or controversial to talk about is downright unacceptable. Talk about partnering with our company. Friendly labor relations. How LM and RA txt every 5 minutes and are BFF's, whatever. But for pay I expect them all to say, 100% of the time, that when needed to save the company the pilots stepped up in the biggest way and gave back not only enough to save the company, but way too much. The emergency Ch 11 so we can avoid Ch 7 PWA that has seen only partial COLA since then simply will be going up to recapture some of what was loaned to the company to survive the darkest days. And way too much flying was outsourced and not only is that trend over, it will be reversed to some degree and those two items (especially the last one) are non negotiable in terms of will they happen or not. They will. And everyone from ALPA natl to DALPA to LM shouldn't shy away from saying so. It is not controversial one bit. It will not tank the share price. It will not trash the credit rating. There is no good reason not to at least be able to say that much. Not saying so makes it seem like someone intends on gutting scope again for a cookie.
Everything's fine, we want top pay, etc. Well here you go...just sign here and you will be top pay! Wait what's all this scope relief? Oh that, well you see, it will result in more mainline not less so you can't afford not to outcource! You know, that whole arguement.
As for LM not being tough enough right now, I don't think we need a Dubinsky approach one bit. I don't expect him or anyone in his position to, especially at this point, talk about burning it all down if necessary to get 1970's pay adjusted for inflation, triple dipping vacation scams, check airman buddy bidding green slip years and other fantasy featherbedding. I don't expect him to say we will strike the shareholders if we don't get 50% raises, blah blah blah. But I do expect all in upper ALPA/DALPA leadership to publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that scope sales are over and in fact, scope reversal to some significant degree WILL occur.
The entire aviation industry is wondering about the future of the 77-120 seat market at Delta Air Lines and every other legacy. Union leaders pretending that this issue is somehow too taboo or controversial to talk about is downright unacceptable. Talk about partnering with our company. Friendly labor relations. How LM and RA txt every 5 minutes and are BFF's, whatever. But for pay I expect them all to say, 100% of the time, that when needed to save the company the pilots stepped up in the biggest way and gave back not only enough to save the company, but way too much. The emergency Ch 11 so we can avoid Ch 7 PWA that has seen only partial COLA since then simply will be going up to recapture some of what was loaned to the company to survive the darkest days. And way too much flying was outsourced and not only is that trend over, it will be reversed to some degree and those two items (especially the last one) are non negotiable in terms of will they happen or not. They will. And everyone from ALPA natl to DALPA to LM shouldn't shy away from saying so. It is not controversial one bit. It will not tank the share price. It will not trash the credit rating. There is no good reason not to at least be able to say that much. Not saying so makes it seem like someone intends on gutting scope again for a cookie.
10-10-2010, 10:44 AM
#949
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by gloopy
The FAE system may indeed have been a major driver of scope sales, and of course that methodology for retirement is long gone. Its exciting that the UAL/CAL guys are ratteling their sabers over Scope and its actual reversal. Although just in the "opener" the fact that its there and a top emphasis item is encouraging. The fact that they have 1500 or so of their brethern on furlough is huge as well. Ditto for AA, although they don't have the urgency of a merger to contend with (yet) management on an industry wide basis will IMHO have a hard time even putting scope relief on the table at any other legacy. Delta will be the front lines because the debate will be framed in a similar manner it was back during the C2K days.
Everything's fine, we want top pay, etc. Well here you go...just sign here and you will be top pay! Wait what's all this scope relief? Oh that, well you see, it will result in more mainline not less so you can't afford not to outcource! You know, that whole arguement.
As for LM not being tough enough right now, I don't think we need a Dubinsky approach one bit. I don't expect him or anyone in his position to, especially at this point, talk about burning it all down if necessary to get 1970's pay adjusted for inflation, triple dipping vacation scams, check airman buddy bidding green slip years and other fantasy featherbedding. I don't expect him to say we will strike the shareholders if we don't get 50% raises, blah blah blah. But I do expect all in upper ALPA/DALPA leadership to publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that scope sales are over and in fact, scope reversal to some significant degree WILL occur.
The entire aviation industry is wondering about the future of the 77-120 seat market at Delta Air Lines and every other legacy. Union leaders pretending that this issue is somehow too taboo or controversial to talk about is downright unacceptable. Talk about partnering with our company. Friendly labor relations. How LM and RA txt every 5 minutes and are BFF's, whatever. But for pay I expect them all to say, 100% of the time, that when needed to save the company the pilots stepped up in the biggest way and gave back not only enough to save the company, but way too much. The emergency Ch 11 so we can avoid Ch 7 PWA that has seen only partial COLA since then simply will be going up to recapture some of what was loaned to the company to survive the darkest days. And way too much flying was outsourced and not only is that trend over, it will be reversed to some degree and those two items (especially the last one) are non negotiable in terms of will they happen or not. They will. And everyone from ALPA natl to DALPA to LM shouldn't shy away from saying so. It is not controversial one bit. It will not tank the share price. It will not trash the credit rating. There is no good reason not to at least be able to say that much. Not saying so makes it seem like someone intends on gutting scope again for a cookie.
Everything's fine, we want top pay, etc. Well here you go...just sign here and you will be top pay! Wait what's all this scope relief? Oh that, well you see, it will result in more mainline not less so you can't afford not to outcource! You know, that whole arguement.
As for LM not being tough enough right now, I don't think we need a Dubinsky approach one bit. I don't expect him or anyone in his position to, especially at this point, talk about burning it all down if necessary to get 1970's pay adjusted for inflation, triple dipping vacation scams, check airman buddy bidding green slip years and other fantasy featherbedding. I don't expect him to say we will strike the shareholders if we don't get 50% raises, blah blah blah. But I do expect all in upper ALPA/DALPA leadership to publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that scope sales are over and in fact, scope reversal to some significant degree WILL occur.
The entire aviation industry is wondering about the future of the 77-120 seat market at Delta Air Lines and every other legacy. Union leaders pretending that this issue is somehow too taboo or controversial to talk about is downright unacceptable. Talk about partnering with our company. Friendly labor relations. How LM and RA txt every 5 minutes and are BFF's, whatever. But for pay I expect them all to say, 100% of the time, that when needed to save the company the pilots stepped up in the biggest way and gave back not only enough to save the company, but way too much. The emergency Ch 11 so we can avoid Ch 7 PWA that has seen only partial COLA since then simply will be going up to recapture some of what was loaned to the company to survive the darkest days. And way too much flying was outsourced and not only is that trend over, it will be reversed to some degree and those two items (especially the last one) are non negotiable in terms of will they happen or not. They will. And everyone from ALPA natl to DALPA to LM shouldn't shy away from saying so. It is not controversial one bit. It will not tank the share price. It will not trash the credit rating. There is no good reason not to at least be able to say that much. Not saying so makes it seem like someone intends on gutting scope again for a cookie.
I think the guys running the show now, meaning the MEC (LM will be gone in a few weeks) are up to the task. I don't think their approach lacks intelligence, effectiveness, or good intentions. But they often can't seem to bridge the gap between a geek-like focused approach to problem-solving (which is fine), and the way trade unionists need to connect to their membership in terms that are clear, simple, and persuasive. You don't have to behave like a raging lunatic when stating, simply and clearly, that our flying isn't available to others.
10-10-2010, 12:46 PM
#950
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
They were in check until guys sold scope to keep FAE up. It bit them in the butt. Now there is no need to worry about a FAE, and pension. It is still about scope. You were a pilot that voted in some of NWA scope sales. As vocal as you are why could you not change the minds of your fellow co workers.
I couldn't change enough minds because our reps had a majority truly scared for the future of the airline. That was our fault for buying into the extreme scare tactics used back then. What's your excuse? Oh I forgot...you're a blameless victim who lost 6 years of longevity.
Carl
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