Delta Pilots Association
08-12-2011 | 08:45 AM
#5941
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I understand all that you've said, but I still don't understand the main point. Which is: Even IF you've made the calculation that ALPA is competent to be our bargaining agent, how do you reconcile their morally reprehensible actions against TWA pilots and ALPA's own in-house union of employees? Am I being too harsh on ALPA from reading the respective judges and juries rulings? Do you think ALPA has learned its lesson about being immoral, and will no longer behave that way?
Carl
Carl
All we & the Court can do is speculate as to intent. The most likely intent was that ALPA figured the deal was the best they could do. Further, the TWA MEC was in agreement at that time. They reversed position later and clearly have a financial incentive to do so. What ever incentive a tax free billion bucks might be ... .
ALPA gets sued because it has a responsibility. Those who have never had that responsibility probably do not appreciate the difficult burden it is.
08-12-2011 | 08:46 AM
#5942
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I'm waiting ... .
08-12-2011 | 08:48 AM
#5943
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
08-12-2011 | 08:56 AM
#5944
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
The following is an excerpt from what the judge had to say in an oral ruling barring the Lee Seham report and his potential testimony.
For the foregoing reasons, defendant's motion to
strike the reports of McCormick and Seham and bar their
testimony as experts at the trial is granted. Their opinions
are based far more on speculation than on their "knowledge,
skill, experience, training or education." Their purported
testimony is not the product of discernible, let alone
reliable, principles and methods.
So what other untruths do you have for us today, Carl?
For the foregoing reasons, defendant's motion to
strike the reports of McCormick and Seham and bar their
testimony as experts at the trial is granted. Their opinions
are based far more on speculation than on their "knowledge,
skill, experience, training or education." Their purported
testimony is not the product of discernible, let alone
reliable, principles and methods.
So what other untruths do you have for us today, Carl?
You DO know that our union ALPA was the one that told us we had no legal right to honor AMFA's picket line...don't you?
Yes. Seham was hired to decertify ALPA. Seham won, ALPA lost.
Yes. Given ALPA national gives us back less than half of what we send, 1% will be plenty.
So why is it that Seham has cut the following deal as reported by DPA:
Our current arrangement with SSMP Law includes a waived retainer fee and a partner rate of only $250 per hour. DPA is billed for only half that rate with the remaining half to be invoiced in stepped payments only when we are successfully certified.
Our current arrangement with SSMP Law includes a waived retainer fee and a partner rate of only $250 per hour. DPA is billed for only half that rate with the remaining half to be invoiced in stepped payments only when we are successfully certified.
Carl
08-12-2011 | 09:01 AM
#5945
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
08-12-2011 | 09:05 AM
#5946
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
----
Question for anyone - are the surveys going to be made public prior to a vote so we can compare and contrast the TA vs surveys? My understanding is no, so then, why not?
08-12-2011 | 09:06 AM
#5947
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Found this on one website, still looking for the lawsuit but this is just for 1 year in 2009, feel free to bat it around:
ALPA Dues at Work
From: XXXXX
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:06 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: FW: ALPA Legal
2009 billing statement from Dan Katz, ALPA lawyer and what he charged to fight TWA. This is ALPA dues money at work and only one of multiple law firms they use.
This year they hired another firm as the litigators along with Katz and probably Cohen Weiss and Simon to fight us.
Bensel and Allied Pilots is the case we brought.
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
WASHINGTON, DC 20016
Total Received from Air Line Pilots: $629,651.00
Itemized Disbursements
The Department of Labor requires unions to itemize any payment over $5,000.
Date Purpose Amount
July 29th, 2009 BENSEL v ALLIED PILOTS ASSOC. $53,386.00
July 1st, 2009 RE: BENSEL v ALLIED PILOTS ASS $61,879.00
June 3rd, 2009 RE: BENSEL $95,264.00
May 27th, 2009 BENSEL v. ALLIED PILOTS $73,264.00
April 22nd, 2009 BENSEL et al v. ALLIED PILOTS $99,870.00
April 22nd, 2009 BENSEL et al v. ALLIED PILOTS $86,636.00
February 4th, 2009 BENSEL v. ALLIED PILOTS ASSOC $71,286.00
January 7th, 2009 BENSEL v. ALLIED PILOTS $28,275.00
Dec. 23rd, 2009 RE: BENSEL V ALPA $6,314.00
Sept. 25th, 2009 RE: MERGER $5,092.00
August 26th, 2009 RE: BENSEL $6,332.00
October 26th, 2009 NWA MERGER DISPUTE $6,019.00
Nov. 20th, 2009 NWA MERGER DISPUTE $9,107.00
July 16th, 2009 Expense Distribution $9,296.00
Dec. 17th, 2009 NWA MERGER NOV SERVICES $6,391.00
ALPA Dues at Work
From: XXXXX
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:06 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: FW: ALPA Legal
2009 billing statement from Dan Katz, ALPA lawyer and what he charged to fight TWA. This is ALPA dues money at work and only one of multiple law firms they use.
This year they hired another firm as the litigators along with Katz and probably Cohen Weiss and Simon to fight us.
Bensel and Allied Pilots is the case we brought.
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
WASHINGTON, DC 20016
Total Received from Air Line Pilots: $629,651.00
Itemized Disbursements
The Department of Labor requires unions to itemize any payment over $5,000.
Date Purpose Amount
July 29th, 2009 BENSEL v ALLIED PILOTS ASSOC. $53,386.00
July 1st, 2009 RE: BENSEL v ALLIED PILOTS ASS $61,879.00
June 3rd, 2009 RE: BENSEL $95,264.00
May 27th, 2009 BENSEL v. ALLIED PILOTS $73,264.00
April 22nd, 2009 BENSEL et al v. ALLIED PILOTS $99,870.00
April 22nd, 2009 BENSEL et al v. ALLIED PILOTS $86,636.00
February 4th, 2009 BENSEL v. ALLIED PILOTS ASSOC $71,286.00
January 7th, 2009 BENSEL v. ALLIED PILOTS $28,275.00
Dec. 23rd, 2009 RE: BENSEL V ALPA $6,314.00
Sept. 25th, 2009 RE: MERGER $5,092.00
August 26th, 2009 RE: BENSEL $6,332.00
October 26th, 2009 NWA MERGER DISPUTE $6,019.00
Nov. 20th, 2009 NWA MERGER DISPUTE $9,107.00
July 16th, 2009 Expense Distribution $9,296.00
Dec. 17th, 2009 NWA MERGER NOV SERVICES $6,391.00
08-12-2011 | 09:13 AM
#5948
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Yes, we need the kind of success he has brought to US Air. Let's examine their accomplishments:
Sued their OWN PILOTS under RICO - Summarily dismissed
Sued by their OWN PILOTS for DFR - Lost
Appealed the DFR verdict - Overturned due to ripeness (they sued too early)
Sued their OWN PILOTS AGAIN under RICO - Summarily dismissed (they accuse their own pilots of being mobsters, what class)
Sued by their company for declaratory judgement - TBD
Sued their own company for failure to negotiate - TBD
Sued by their company for illegal job action - TBD
TRO filed by their company for illegal job action - Hearing today, we shall see
Sued their OWN PILOTS under RICO - Summarily dismissed
Sued by their OWN PILOTS for DFR - Lost
Appealed the DFR verdict - Overturned due to ripeness (they sued too early)
Sued their OWN PILOTS AGAIN under RICO - Summarily dismissed (they accuse their own pilots of being mobsters, what class)
Sued by their company for declaratory judgement - TBD
Sued their own company for failure to negotiate - TBD
Sued by their company for illegal job action - TBD
TRO filed by their company for illegal job action - Hearing today, we shall see
And keeping the seniority lists separate.
Really? You're FOR voting?
Who knew.
Carl
08-12-2011 | 09:13 AM
#5949
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 650
Likes: 5
From: 787 Capt.
Shiznit,
I must have struck a nerve with you. *I usually do with he Fundamentalist ALPA sect. *
It is a fact that ALPA representing both sides of the Scope issue is a conflict of interest.*
It is a fact that in the *80's $1 out of $5 in dues came back to operate ALPA at *UAL. * This was back in the *day when all of these airlines were in ALPA
UAL
CAL
PAA
DAL
EAL*
NWA
ATA*
USAIR
America West
Frontier
Alaska
Etc...Etc....
Today it is
*UAL/CAL
DAL
FedEx
Alaska
Spirit
Sun Country
And a whole laundry list of express carriers which you can go look up yourself.*
"Really? Where have you been hiding? Did you miss the 2001-2011 time period completely? Did you miss the 1998-2000 time period before that where the mainline ALPA pilot made huge gains? "
Where have you been hiding for the last 10 years since the Shiznit hit the fan? Duane Woerth admitted that he wrote off UAL during Chapter 11. It is a fact that that many of my "brothers" were actively lobbying for the end of UAL so that life would be improved for everyone else. Try to count how many pilot jobs disappeared at the mainline and are now at express. The RJ issue actually started in the 90's
Here is another fact you can spend the day verifying. The United pilot strike in 85' ended at 29 days because ALPA National could not afford to financially support the group on strike. On day 30 ALPA would have had to start writing checks and collecting assessments and they couldn't afford to do that. So UAL was on it's own in1985 and is still today.
I must have struck a nerve with you. *I usually do with he Fundamentalist ALPA sect. *
It is a fact that ALPA representing both sides of the Scope issue is a conflict of interest.*
It is a fact that in the *80's $1 out of $5 in dues came back to operate ALPA at *UAL. * This was back in the *day when all of these airlines were in ALPA
UAL
CAL
PAA
DAL
EAL*
NWA
ATA*
USAIR
America West
Frontier
Alaska
Etc...Etc....
Today it is
*UAL/CAL
DAL
FedEx
Alaska
Spirit
Sun Country
And a whole laundry list of express carriers which you can go look up yourself.*
"Really? Where have you been hiding? Did you miss the 2001-2011 time period completely? Did you miss the 1998-2000 time period before that where the mainline ALPA pilot made huge gains? "
Where have you been hiding for the last 10 years since the Shiznit hit the fan? Duane Woerth admitted that he wrote off UAL during Chapter 11. It is a fact that that many of my "brothers" were actively lobbying for the end of UAL so that life would be improved for everyone else. Try to count how many pilot jobs disappeared at the mainline and are now at express. The RJ issue actually started in the 90's
Here is another fact you can spend the day verifying. The United pilot strike in 85' ended at 29 days because ALPA National could not afford to financially support the group on strike. On day 30 ALPA would have had to start writing checks and collecting assessments and they couldn't afford to do that. So UAL was on it's own in1985 and is still today.
08-12-2011 | 09:17 AM
#5950
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
I think ALPA is probably one of the finest professional societies the world has ever seen, however as a union, it just stinks. Getting rid of ALPA as the CBA representative does not mean ALPA has to die. Personally, I see it as a way for ALPA to get stronger as a business and become more like the AMA, the society of engineers, etc. That's what this profession is really lacking; A central institution that sets pilot standards, but instead we're stuck with the FAA. It couldn't be more clear that the FAA does not have the best interests of pilots in mind. That's huge problem and we pay for it everyday.
Carl
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