Delta Pilots Association
08-12-2011, 09:18 AM
#5951
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
None that I know of when it comes to an appeal that is published, printed and available to review. But I take it the premise is ALPA National has never had influence on a local MEC when it comes to scope, right? Do we know that's the case for sure?
----
Question for anyone - are the surveys going to be made public prior to a vote so we can compare and contrast the TA vs surveys? My understanding is no, so then, why not?
----
Question for anyone - are the surveys going to be made public prior to a vote so we can compare and contrast the TA vs surveys? My understanding is no, so then, why not?
If the DPA had an example they would cite it. (and they have former MEC insiders on their team, Tim Caplinger was on the negotiating committee even).
08-12-2011, 09:19 AM
#5952
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
All we & the Court can do is speculate as to intent. The most likely intent was that ALPA figured the deal was the best they could do. Further, the TWA MEC was in agreement at that time. They reversed position later and clearly have a financial incentive to do so. What ever incentive a tax free billion bucks might be ... .
ALPA gets sued because it has a responsibility. Those who have never had that responsibility probably do not appreciate the difficult burden it is.
All we & the Court can do is speculate as to intent. The most likely intent was that ALPA figured the deal was the best they could do. Further, the TWA MEC was in agreement at that time. They reversed position later and clearly have a financial incentive to do so. What ever incentive a tax free billion bucks might be ... .
ALPA gets sued because it has a responsibility. Those who have never had that responsibility probably do not appreciate the difficult burden it is.
Carl
08-12-2011, 09:21 AM
#5953
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Found this letter from a TWA pilot to his fellow JB pilots:
Dear Friends and Fellow Pilots,
One of the primary issues in the ALPA card drive and election has been that JetBlue
pilots need ALPA to protect their jobs and careers in the event of merger, acquisition,
or other events. ALPA supporters ask pilots to forget their own experiences and instead
accept what JetBlue ALPA might be. As ex TWA pilots we can’t forget our ALPA
representation during the American takeover. This vote is so important to all of us....it
can completely change everything we have know for the last 11 years. We want JetBlue
pilots to hear our story....to know why we don’t want to be associated with ALPA again.
We believe that it is imperative to know that ALPA simply can’t provide the career
protections they are selling.
There is an ongoing lawsuit by TWA pilots against ALPA for failure in its Duty of Fair
Representation (DFR). Documents that support my story (including ALPA briefs) are
downloadable at TWAPilot. We encourage
everyone to at least open the files and read the table of contents and introductions.
The undisputed facts are that (like USAir) TWA was in trouble and management sought a
merger partner. American was willing, but set a precondition that TWA enter bankruptcy
so American could void some contracts and avoid the level of DOT oversight which
scuttled the United/USAir merger. Bankruptcy maneuvering allowed American and it’s
pilots to impose a seniority integration that stapled 1200 of the 2250 TWA pilots below
409 AA pilots who were not even on the payroll at the time of the Asset Purchase
Agreement. The remaining TWA pilots were placed at an approximately 8-1 ratio that
had the effect of decreasing seniority by up to 21 years. The result was “harshly-unfair”
to the point of inducing Congressional legislation; the McCaskill-Bond act we hear so
much about now. Since then, court rulings have even put American Eagle flow through
new hires above TWA pilots.
Our lawsuit claims ALPA violated its DFR by not only failing to support TWA pilots
but actually undermining their efforts. ALPA actions included failing to 1) support TWA
pilots’ refusal to waive the Labor Protective Provisions (LPP’s) in the TWA/ALPA
contract, 2) pursue litigation against the unilateral AA plan, and 3) support legislative
efforts to mandate a seniority arbitration. ALPA and its president Duane Worth were
motivated by a desire to merge with APA. Worth saw the merger as his legacy, and
wasn’t about to let a “little thing” like the TWA seniority integration stand in the way.
Worth vetoed a TWA MEC legal strategy because he would not permit them suing APA.
ALPA shut down the TWA MEC offices and kept all the contents, including personal
handwritten notes of officers. ALPA denied the TWA MEC financial assistance,
including funds which they supposedly held in trust. ALPA at least promised funding
for APA pilots leading an ALPA card drive. Worth told APA pilots TWA had to “get
real”; undercutting the TWA position by telegraphing that ALPA would not provide
support. In total ALPA provided no protection from the APA cram down.
Further, when it became apparent that TWA pilots may file for failure of DFR, ALPA
destroyed evidence in attempts to cover up. They continued to destroy evidence after the
suit was filed and well into discovery. They destroyed paper copies, tapes, and electronic
data including computers, servers, and hard drives. Only copies fortunately kept by
TWA MEC members exist to counter ALPA versions of the events which cost TWA
pilots so dearly.
ALPA claims of course that Worth didn’t make statements attributed to him, that they
never continued the APA merger effort, that they did everything possible to help TWA
pilots, and that discarding some items and upgrading equipment is standard business
practice.
Either way it’s damming. Either ALPA undermined a member to curry favor with
a larger airline not even affiliated, or ALPA was completely impotent to do anything
to protect TWA pilots. For ALPA to claim now that McCaskill-Bond is a union
achievement or that the law applies only to union pilots is shameless hypocrisy. The law
was passed specifically in response to ALPA’s failure.
There are many other examples where ALPA’s claims to provide superior merger
protections are simply false. In the recent Republic, Lynx, Frontier, Midwest seniority
integration (3077 combined) only Midwest pilots were represented by ALPA and
they faired the worst. Of 385 Midwest pilots, 215 were stapled to the bottom with the
remaining 150 scattered in the middle third (1000 to 2185) at a 10:1 ratio.
ALPA did not provide a smooth seniority integration for US Airways- American West
but rather disengaged to let them fight it out. To the US Airways pilots the result was so
outrageous they quit ALPA to form an independent union. The “winning” America West
pilots have yet to see any benefit from the integration, and ALPA has been powerless
to enforce their own merger policy. Both pilot groups are stuck with bankruptcy era
ALPA contracts and there will be no progress until the pilots strike a deal. US Airways
management is laughing all the way to the bank.
We could (but won’t) go on and on about how the ALPA promises can’t be met. We will
say instead there are two keys to protecting a pilot’s career.
First, your airline must be strong enough to control it’s own fate. You avoid hostile
takeovers by having the better brand and better balance sheet. A solvent airline can’t use
bankruptcy as a strategy to void all contracts. History is full of union airlines grabbing
quick gains in good times followed by concessions under actual or threat of bankruptcy.
That leaves any pilot vulnerable. Southwest employees wisely chose modest contracts
while they grew the airline at a low debt ratio. That is the path to long term success and
with or without a union.
Second, (particularly if yours is not the stronger airline) you need to have strong Labor
Protection Provisions in your contract. We consider Kevin Fitzpatrick independent and
authoritative. In road shows he says our current contracts as enhanced by the proposed 5
documents will provide excellent LPPs immediately. We like the idea that the company
is liable if an integration is not fair. We don’t need ALPA to have contractual protections
and we don’t need 5 years of contract negotiations to get them.
We will not willingly again pay 2% of our gross compensation to that organization.
ALPA can’t guarantee the initial contract will have even close to the 5 document
employment protections. If they get them, they’ll most likely give up something else
we now have. We urge you to vote and vote no. Do not allow a majority of voters (who
may be a minority of pilots) to impose ALPA on us all.
Sincerely,
Frank Daniel TWA 3/3/89 MD80 Captain JFK
Anne Aldrich TWA 5/12/1994 to 07/01/2003
Steve Gardella TWA 4/7/1997 to 12/31/2002
too!
Bill Dowling TWA 3/11/1999 to 10/31/2001
Pat Hines TWA 9/89 to 07/03 MD80 Captain JFK....took care of me they did
Scott Farmer TWA 1996-2003
Alan Altman TWA 1997-2003 MEC member, Negotiating Committee member, TWA
vs. ALPA lawsuit witness
Greg Register TWA May 1996 - June 2003
Craig Mulligan TWA 02/03/89-11/01/03
Paul Bruder TWA 05/19/89-07/02/03
Ian Duncan TWA 4/89-8/03 MD-80 Captain JFK JetBlue 7/05-present 190 Captain
BOS
One of the primary issues in the ALPA card drive and election has been that JetBlue
pilots need ALPA to protect their jobs and careers in the event of merger, acquisition,
or other events. ALPA supporters ask pilots to forget their own experiences and instead
accept what JetBlue ALPA might be. As ex TWA pilots we can’t forget our ALPA
representation during the American takeover. This vote is so important to all of us....it
can completely change everything we have know for the last 11 years. We want JetBlue
pilots to hear our story....to know why we don’t want to be associated with ALPA again.
We believe that it is imperative to know that ALPA simply can’t provide the career
protections they are selling.
There is an ongoing lawsuit by TWA pilots against ALPA for failure in its Duty of Fair
Representation (DFR). Documents that support my story (including ALPA briefs) are
downloadable at TWAPilot. We encourage
everyone to at least open the files and read the table of contents and introductions.
The undisputed facts are that (like USAir) TWA was in trouble and management sought a
merger partner. American was willing, but set a precondition that TWA enter bankruptcy
so American could void some contracts and avoid the level of DOT oversight which
scuttled the United/USAir merger. Bankruptcy maneuvering allowed American and it’s
pilots to impose a seniority integration that stapled 1200 of the 2250 TWA pilots below
409 AA pilots who were not even on the payroll at the time of the Asset Purchase
Agreement. The remaining TWA pilots were placed at an approximately 8-1 ratio that
had the effect of decreasing seniority by up to 21 years. The result was “harshly-unfair”
to the point of inducing Congressional legislation; the McCaskill-Bond act we hear so
much about now. Since then, court rulings have even put American Eagle flow through
new hires above TWA pilots.
Our lawsuit claims ALPA violated its DFR by not only failing to support TWA pilots
but actually undermining their efforts. ALPA actions included failing to 1) support TWA
pilots’ refusal to waive the Labor Protective Provisions (LPP’s) in the TWA/ALPA
contract, 2) pursue litigation against the unilateral AA plan, and 3) support legislative
efforts to mandate a seniority arbitration. ALPA and its president Duane Worth were
motivated by a desire to merge with APA. Worth saw the merger as his legacy, and
wasn’t about to let a “little thing” like the TWA seniority integration stand in the way.
Worth vetoed a TWA MEC legal strategy because he would not permit them suing APA.
ALPA shut down the TWA MEC offices and kept all the contents, including personal
handwritten notes of officers. ALPA denied the TWA MEC financial assistance,
including funds which they supposedly held in trust. ALPA at least promised funding
for APA pilots leading an ALPA card drive. Worth told APA pilots TWA had to “get
real”; undercutting the TWA position by telegraphing that ALPA would not provide
support. In total ALPA provided no protection from the APA cram down.
Further, when it became apparent that TWA pilots may file for failure of DFR, ALPA
destroyed evidence in attempts to cover up. They continued to destroy evidence after the
suit was filed and well into discovery. They destroyed paper copies, tapes, and electronic
data including computers, servers, and hard drives. Only copies fortunately kept by
TWA MEC members exist to counter ALPA versions of the events which cost TWA
pilots so dearly.
ALPA claims of course that Worth didn’t make statements attributed to him, that they
never continued the APA merger effort, that they did everything possible to help TWA
pilots, and that discarding some items and upgrading equipment is standard business
practice.
Either way it’s damming. Either ALPA undermined a member to curry favor with
a larger airline not even affiliated, or ALPA was completely impotent to do anything
to protect TWA pilots. For ALPA to claim now that McCaskill-Bond is a union
achievement or that the law applies only to union pilots is shameless hypocrisy. The law
was passed specifically in response to ALPA’s failure.
There are many other examples where ALPA’s claims to provide superior merger
protections are simply false. In the recent Republic, Lynx, Frontier, Midwest seniority
integration (3077 combined) only Midwest pilots were represented by ALPA and
they faired the worst. Of 385 Midwest pilots, 215 were stapled to the bottom with the
remaining 150 scattered in the middle third (1000 to 2185) at a 10:1 ratio.
ALPA did not provide a smooth seniority integration for US Airways- American West
but rather disengaged to let them fight it out. To the US Airways pilots the result was so
outrageous they quit ALPA to form an independent union. The “winning” America West
pilots have yet to see any benefit from the integration, and ALPA has been powerless
to enforce their own merger policy. Both pilot groups are stuck with bankruptcy era
ALPA contracts and there will be no progress until the pilots strike a deal. US Airways
management is laughing all the way to the bank.
We could (but won’t) go on and on about how the ALPA promises can’t be met. We will
say instead there are two keys to protecting a pilot’s career.
First, your airline must be strong enough to control it’s own fate. You avoid hostile
takeovers by having the better brand and better balance sheet. A solvent airline can’t use
bankruptcy as a strategy to void all contracts. History is full of union airlines grabbing
quick gains in good times followed by concessions under actual or threat of bankruptcy.
That leaves any pilot vulnerable. Southwest employees wisely chose modest contracts
while they grew the airline at a low debt ratio. That is the path to long term success and
with or without a union.
Second, (particularly if yours is not the stronger airline) you need to have strong Labor
Protection Provisions in your contract. We consider Kevin Fitzpatrick independent and
authoritative. In road shows he says our current contracts as enhanced by the proposed 5
documents will provide excellent LPPs immediately. We like the idea that the company
is liable if an integration is not fair. We don’t need ALPA to have contractual protections
and we don’t need 5 years of contract negotiations to get them.
We will not willingly again pay 2% of our gross compensation to that organization.
ALPA can’t guarantee the initial contract will have even close to the 5 document
employment protections. If they get them, they’ll most likely give up something else
we now have. We urge you to vote and vote no. Do not allow a majority of voters (who
may be a minority of pilots) to impose ALPA on us all.
Sincerely,
Frank Daniel TWA 3/3/89 MD80 Captain JFK
Anne Aldrich TWA 5/12/1994 to 07/01/2003
Steve Gardella TWA 4/7/1997 to 12/31/2002
too!
Bill Dowling TWA 3/11/1999 to 10/31/2001
Pat Hines TWA 9/89 to 07/03 MD80 Captain JFK....took care of me they did
Scott Farmer TWA 1996-2003
Alan Altman TWA 1997-2003 MEC member, Negotiating Committee member, TWA
vs. ALPA lawsuit witness
Greg Register TWA May 1996 - June 2003
Craig Mulligan TWA 02/03/89-11/01/03
Paul Bruder TWA 05/19/89-07/02/03
Ian Duncan TWA 4/89-8/03 MD-80 Captain JFK JetBlue 7/05-present 190 Captain
BOS
08-12-2011, 09:22 AM
#5954
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
It makes me giggle when US Air pilots and Continental scabs say "WE WON!"
If that isn't like coming in first at the Special Olympics ... (no offense to the cognitively challenged intended)
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 08-12-2011 at 09:57 AM.
08-12-2011, 09:23 AM
#5955
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
One more...
Below are additional comments by several of the signers of this document:
I’d like to add a few comments regarding some of the arguments I heard dismissing
ALPA’s treatment of the TWA pilots. I have not only heard what follows form
ALPAsupporters at JetBlue, but also from the ALPA reps in the food courts around our
system.
The first is that your representation is only as good as your MEC. ALPA National
put a huge amount of pressure on our TWA MEC to voluntarily give up our scope
clause in bankruptcy court. I spoke to my own ALPA representative for two hours on
this subject prior to the MEC vote. He repeated the mantra “ALPA national says…
ALPA national says… ALPA national says…” And away it went. After September 11
the TWA pilots were told by APA the offer on the table was a good as it gets, and that
we should accept it. ALPA National agreed. Our MEC voted this agreement down.
Shortly thereafter American closed the JFK and LAX domiciles, drastically changing to
composition of our MEC. Duane Woerth approached our MEC chairman and instructed
him to vote on the “cram down” again, stating this time he thought it could be pushed
through. Why in the world would he want to force the TWA pilots to revote on a matter
already decided?!?
The second item is the suggestion that TWA pilots were lucky to get what they got.
TWA entered bankruptcy as a condition of purchase by AA. This was done the day after
AA announced the purchase of TWA and was designed to void a ticket deal with Carl
Icahn. If the ticket deal could not be nullified AA would away from the deal. While not
a financially healthy airline, the idea that TWA was already in bankruptcy, or already
out of business when AA bought it is incorrect. To suggest that ALPA’s support of a
pilot group is dependent on the financial health of the airline defeats one of the primary
functions of ALPA: to protect the pilot group and their interests. Isn’t this just when a
pilot group needs representation the most, when they are vulnerable?
In response to these two items I have been told “this is a new ALPA” and that ALPA
National has changed. If they are capable of such changes what is to prevent them from
changing back?
I think we all agree that changes are needed here at JetBlue. The question is how
to best effect those changes. ALPA’s interests are frequently not those of the JetBlue
pilots. Inviting their participation into our internal matters will at best dilute our own
objectives with theirs. I’d like better retirement and medical benefits as much as the
next pilot, but I’m not willing to destroy the job I already have by letting ALPA on the
property to get them.
ALPA supporters question our company’s promises and commitment to our careers as
pilots. These supporters are unwilling to “take a chance” with JetBlue’s leadership.
ALPA gave away twelve years of my seniority as well as my captain’s seat. I question
their promises and commitment to my career. I am unwilling to take another chance with
ALPA. They ruined my TWA career. I’d prefer not to give them a shot at this one.
Ian Duncan TWA 4/89-8/03 MD-80 Captain JFK JetBlue 7/05-present 190 Captain
BOS
I’d like to add a few comments regarding some of the arguments I heard dismissing
ALPA’s treatment of the TWA pilots. I have not only heard what follows form
ALPAsupporters at JetBlue, but also from the ALPA reps in the food courts around our
system.
The first is that your representation is only as good as your MEC. ALPA National
put a huge amount of pressure on our TWA MEC to voluntarily give up our scope
clause in bankruptcy court. I spoke to my own ALPA representative for two hours on
this subject prior to the MEC vote. He repeated the mantra “ALPA national says…
ALPA national says… ALPA national says…” And away it went. After September 11
the TWA pilots were told by APA the offer on the table was a good as it gets, and that
we should accept it. ALPA National agreed. Our MEC voted this agreement down.
Shortly thereafter American closed the JFK and LAX domiciles, drastically changing to
composition of our MEC. Duane Woerth approached our MEC chairman and instructed
him to vote on the “cram down” again, stating this time he thought it could be pushed
through. Why in the world would he want to force the TWA pilots to revote on a matter
already decided?!?
The second item is the suggestion that TWA pilots were lucky to get what they got.
TWA entered bankruptcy as a condition of purchase by AA. This was done the day after
AA announced the purchase of TWA and was designed to void a ticket deal with Carl
Icahn. If the ticket deal could not be nullified AA would away from the deal. While not
a financially healthy airline, the idea that TWA was already in bankruptcy, or already
out of business when AA bought it is incorrect. To suggest that ALPA’s support of a
pilot group is dependent on the financial health of the airline defeats one of the primary
functions of ALPA: to protect the pilot group and their interests. Isn’t this just when a
pilot group needs representation the most, when they are vulnerable?
In response to these two items I have been told “this is a new ALPA” and that ALPA
National has changed. If they are capable of such changes what is to prevent them from
changing back?
I think we all agree that changes are needed here at JetBlue. The question is how
to best effect those changes. ALPA’s interests are frequently not those of the JetBlue
pilots. Inviting their participation into our internal matters will at best dilute our own
objectives with theirs. I’d like better retirement and medical benefits as much as the
next pilot, but I’m not willing to destroy the job I already have by letting ALPA on the
property to get them.
ALPA supporters question our company’s promises and commitment to our careers as
pilots. These supporters are unwilling to “take a chance” with JetBlue’s leadership.
ALPA gave away twelve years of my seniority as well as my captain’s seat. I question
their promises and commitment to my career. I am unwilling to take another chance with
ALPA. They ruined my TWA career. I’d prefer not to give them a shot at this one.
Ian Duncan TWA 4/89-8/03 MD-80 Captain JFK JetBlue 7/05-present 190 Captain
BOS
08-12-2011, 09:24 AM
#5956
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
That's just one example. So ACL can stop his walk to Anchorage.
Carl
08-12-2011, 09:28 AM
#5957
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: 787 Capt.
Posts: 644
It doesnt matter if you think I am full of Shiznit or not. The fact is that the list of unsatisfied pilots at UAL and DAL is getting bigger by the day. All it takes is one to pull the plug and the other will follow. My guess is it will be UAL who bails first.
08-12-2011, 09:29 AM
#5958
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
08-12-2011, 09:29 AM
#5959
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
- What would happen if they had just gone out of business
- What would happen if American really would have just bought the assets without pilots
- What would happen in bankruptcy before a Judge
This is kind of like two lovers fighting because the kid turned out ugly. They both knew what they were doing when the wine and roses came out.
08-12-2011, 09:37 AM
#5960
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
As a reminder...
Delta 747, 757ER, 763ER, 764ER, 772, A332, A333 total - 177
Delta 737, 752, 753, 763, A319, A320, DC9, M88, M90 total - 550
Total Delta Fleet- 727
Delta Connection
CRJ100/200 - 347
CRJ-700 - 78
CRJ-900 - 101
E170 - 9
E175 - 52
ERJ145 - 24
Saab 340 - 16
Total Delta Connection - 627
Now any reductions in the fleet seem to becoming on the CRJ100/200 level, because of age and cost. But they're not being scoped out.
I have not heard anything about trying to bring over or eliminate the CRJ700, CRJ900 and E-Jets to mainline.
Delta 747, 757ER, 763ER, 764ER, 772, A332, A333 total - 177
Delta 737, 752, 753, 763, A319, A320, DC9, M88, M90 total - 550
Total Delta Fleet- 727
Delta Connection
CRJ100/200 - 347
CRJ-700 - 78
CRJ-900 - 101
E170 - 9
E175 - 52
ERJ145 - 24
Saab 340 - 16
Total Delta Connection - 627
Now any reductions in the fleet seem to becoming on the CRJ100/200 level, because of age and cost. But they're not being scoped out.
I have not heard anything about trying to bring over or eliminate the CRJ700, CRJ900 and E-Jets to mainline.
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