Carl Spackler

True enough, but that has nothing to do with the subject. We're not talking about conflict within our union (DALPA)...we're talking about a conflict of interest within ALPA because they represent the pilots who currently fly our branded flights.

Conflict, and conflict of interest are two entirely different animals. Please do not try to conflate the two in order to make your indefensible case.

Of course you have an issue with the DPA's use of the democratic process. You've been advocating against it since day one. Here's your first post on this thread from over a year ago:

Notice how there's nothing in there about how close we are to Section 6? Your main issue then and now is us Delta pilots harming the regional pilots, and that not being very nice of us. Your posts are replete with the concern for ALPA national and for the regional pilots. It's only now that you've taken the different tack of claiming we're too close to Section 6.

That's why you have such a credibility problem on this issue acl. Your main goal is to keep ALPA on the property no matter what. The only thing that has changed is your tactics...and your excuses.

And by the way, we are not in the "middle" of Section 6. I know you know this, I just don't know why you would claim we are.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Another straw man argument. Any organization IS the people that are in it. The "structure" can't do anything without the people. The structure is what allows people with immoral motives to stay in power after they've made their immoral decisions. The "structure" allows these people to wipe away any attempts at change. THAT'S the issue.

Touting a conflict at national? Seriously? If you can't see the clear conflict of interest at ALPA national, I pretty much can't help you dude. You might want to sit in on a legal ethics course in your local law school. I'd be very surprised if the current structure of ALPA doesn't provide one of the textbook case studies in defining a conflict of interest.

Nobody denies that. What ALPA is lacking is anyone willing to use that framework when their own power is threatened. They simply change the rules within that framework to deny the will of our elected reps, ignore resolutions, and remain in power. Thus the people are behaving in a corrupt manner, and the "structure" itself is a failure for not having the checks and balances to prevent this type of outrageous behavior.

You continue to flat out ignore what happened with our FPL resolution in DTW. Do you think I'm the only one that notices how you don't even respond to this when I bring it up? I know you must do that in order to post what you've written above with a straight face, but people DO notice.

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl;
I still stand by the point that it is better to have the regionals under our national umbrella then on their own. Those reasons have not changed. If you would like a change in structure at the national level, advocate for it, but it is better to control their representational cash flow then to have them think there is nothing to lose questions are bargaining exclusivity.

As for you section 6 point, it is just another reason as to why this is a not a good idea. We started talking about DPA well over a year ago, and at the time DPA and its leaders were touting a May 2011 vote. Well we are six months past that mark and the vote count is still about 2700 votes a way. The time between now and the first openers is a few months away. If we want leverage and the maximum amount of value to be derived out of this negotiation, promoting an alternate bargaining agent is not the best course of action. There are multiple reasons as to why DPA is not a good idea. Promoting it this close to section 6 just speaks to more pilots because it translates in to cash in their pockets.

Yes, I want ALPA to survive, and I want our pilots to fix what they advocate as its failings. There are a great many things that ALPA and DALPA do well, and I would hate to see those squandered because people are not willing to put in the hard work of unifying pilots under a common cause within the system, but instead tout an alternate system as the solution to all of the woes of the piloting profession. USAPA did that and it does not seem to have been the answer to their problems.

Carl Spackler

I know you're the king of ignoring the obvious, but the democratic action taken by many of us to make DPA a reality is not rhetoric...it is action. We only need 2700 more cards to throw ALPA off the property. But you just go ahead and continue to label it as rhetoric. That should work fine.

Another example of you considering ALPA family and country. ALPA is a vendor...nothing more. I totally support my country always. A vendor needs to show competence, or they're fired. Period.

Maybe we wouldn't disagree if you actually paid attention to the facts on the ground. ALPA blatantly ignoring the FPL resolution is just the latest example of how there is no facilitation of change among ALPA unless they agree with it. You can't agree with that because you are able to simply close your eyes tight and cover your ears. I can't do that.

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl;

If they ignored it, isn't that grounds for recall? I do not think it was ignored. What I see as the issue there is it is caught up in the committee that the reps created to deal with it. When they talk about it once a quarter it get stuck between a lot of other pressing issues, and as a result no major action has been taken on it. Hold your reps feet to the fire. I know that they are in favor of it.

I also have a hard time calling ALPA a vendor when it is made up of people that pay for the service. A Vendor is a third party which you pay for. I see the problem is that too many pilots see ALPA as a vendor and do not engage, as a result we are where we are. Our dues are not like country club dues, engagement in the process and a need for volunteers is not just requested but required. That difference in semantics is the crux of the problem.

Carl Spackler

On the contrary. The only hope we have (other than voting in DPA) is to have our MEC feeling the DPA gun to their heads all the way through negotiations. This is a particular problem for the MEC because it will ruin one of their biggest guns when they sign off on a Tentative Agreement. That weapon is saying: "You guys better vote this in or we're in big trouble. It's the best management will ever offer and if you vote it down, everyone on the negotiating committee will resign and we'll have to start over from square one."

That threat will be met this time with the DPA saying: "Terrific. Get out and watch out for the doorknob."

Again, I don't know if you're actually ignorant of the difference between conflict and conflict of interest, or you're just hoping nobody notices your play on words to erect your latest straw man.

How you describe ALPA as "Transparency in the process" is flat out amazing. How transparent is ALPA's process that ignored their own rules and continue to ignore our Flight Pay Loss resolution? How transparent was ALPA's process to stab TWA pilots in the back when those pilots thought they were actually being represented by ALPA?

Carl

Carl Spackler

News flash. We don't control their cash flow, they control ours. We only get about 30% of our dues money back from ALPA. Much of that difference goes to the regionals who are not viable unions without our money taken from us to support them.

Ah yes, the USAPA comparison. Haven't heard that shameless scam for a while. It's always good to hear it come back because it's just more evidence that there is no defending ALPA's actions other than scare tactics and flat out ignoring of ALPA's actions.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Hilarious! If ALPA survives this vote, they need to repay you with a lifetime membership in the inner circle of Flight Pay Loss volunteers and administrators. I've not seen anyone shill and excuse like you've just done. It just got stuck? Unbelievable.

I work with my vendors all the time to try and make them better vendors. I do this while I pay them. If they're not good vendors, they're fired. Happens every day. Except in this group where thus far, pilots excuse poor results and a representational relationship that has a massive conflict of interest with our direct competitors.

You're too smart a person to actually believe this is all about semantics. I know you don't believe that. You couldn't. Because of that you just come off as a shameless apologist for a union that has stabbed it's own members in the back (TWA), ignored our resolutions (FPL), and tried to break the union of its own internal employees. I just don't know how you can do it. I know you want to reach that ALPA inner sanctum more than anything, but I just don't know how you can ignore what you ignore.

Carl

bigbusdriver

Closer to three years now. Same over here.

Superpilot even had the name worked out!

acl65pilot

Carl;

I will respond more later but for one thing 30% is our local budget for what the other 2/3rds does not cover. Go read the post on the DALPA Forum if you think that we literally give 20 million to national a year and never see any goods or services from it. Jeez!