Delta Pilots Association
10-10-2011, 10:09 AM
#6471
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,993
Originally Posted by tsquare
What you say here is absolutely no different than saying that DAL pilots cannot bargain with UAL management. THey are two separate companies as are Comair and Delta. This is a non issue IMHO. But interestingly enough, you raise precisely the conflict of interest issue that has national. How can they serve 2 masters? They cannot. period. I'm not saying that DPA is remotely a real answer, but your argument isn't convincing me of much at this point.
We are a paint job and a frequent flier credit card away from being replaced if not for our scope section.
Lines which divide = DUMB
Circles which include = SMART
Circles which include = SMART
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 10-10-2011 at 10:24 AM.
10-10-2011, 10:46 AM
#6472
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Corporate ownership issues aside (since you don't recognize them), brand matters.
We are a paint job and a frequent flier credit card away from being replaced if not for our scope section.
We are a paint job and a frequent flier credit card away from being replaced if not for our scope section.
Lines which divide = DUMB
Circles which include = SMART
Circles which include = SMART
Yeah true, but we DO have a scope section. Management cannot violate that to the degree that it would matter even in self help without burning down the house. Struck work/lockout.. call it what you will.. if DCI tries and picks up any of that kind of flying, there would be pure hell to pay on the other end. And it would ruin the company to boot. No.. management is not stupid, and neither is DCI.
10-10-2011, 10:49 AM
#6473
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
On the scope front, we're in a fight for our lives. I've got to pick the experienced team which provides the best, structural, chance of success.
10-10-2011, 12:01 PM
#6474
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,993
Originally Posted by tsquare
Yeah true, but we DO have a scope section. Management cannot violate that to the degree that it would matter even in self help without burning down the house. Struck work/lockout.. call it what you will.. if DCI tries and picks up any of that kind of flying, there would be pure hell to pay on the other end. And it would ruin the company to boot. No.. management is not stupid, and neither is DCI.
Management does not care about burning down houses in Peachtree City when they live in Buckhead and Manhattan. Comair's living in their former tool shed and our other siblings were adopted by the highest bidder.
Just looking at the numbers, Delta is more than happy to broker tickets and fill airplanes operated by other airlines. In the last ten years I've seen nearly no indication Delta has an interest in taking market share except for a brief pop of activity from the quickly deposed Jim Whitehurst.
IMHO, our current management would engage in self help.
By the way anyone seen how Red Hat is doing? That stock has doubled since Jim's been there.
10-10-2011, 12:38 PM
#6475
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Scambo, Fly4Hire and Bar have effectively explained why the RJ pilot issue is a red herring.
Also at the last BOD when no one was running for Sean's job a OH pilot stood up and wanted to take the position, he was not just shot down my mainline pilots, he was also shot down by the RJ pilots as well.
These RJ pilots that are represented by ALPA want us to get our scope in order so they can come here. Ten plus years of stagnation have stunk, but alas they are finally seeing the writing on the RJ wall. Like rats on a sinking ship, they are trying to go anywhere they can.
As Carl like to point out in my first post, and I and Bar have reiterated, it is smart business to keep the RJ pilots under our National umbrella. Even though our exclusivity rights would win in court, that does not mean that ALPA can argue they could do an end round, or better yet, the RJ unions would go directly to DAL management and negotiate with them. After a fierce ten year court battle we would probably win, but would have zero leverage and would be flat on our backs. It is better to take the unity amongst the profession approach and find solutions that work for all pilots, direct the energy and resources towards the issues that need it and not each other.
Leaving ALPA may sound good, but as I posted some 6000 posts ago, the unintended consequences reach a lot farther than this section 6. All of the reasons listed are proof to why it is a lot simpler to fix the problems we have then to try to build a new house. This list of potential threats is long, and all of them really only afford us one change to get them right.
Also at the last BOD when no one was running for Sean's job a OH pilot stood up and wanted to take the position, he was not just shot down my mainline pilots, he was also shot down by the RJ pilots as well.
These RJ pilots that are represented by ALPA want us to get our scope in order so they can come here. Ten plus years of stagnation have stunk, but alas they are finally seeing the writing on the RJ wall. Like rats on a sinking ship, they are trying to go anywhere they can.
As Carl like to point out in my first post, and I and Bar have reiterated, it is smart business to keep the RJ pilots under our National umbrella. Even though our exclusivity rights would win in court, that does not mean that ALPA can argue they could do an end round, or better yet, the RJ unions would go directly to DAL management and negotiate with them. After a fierce ten year court battle we would probably win, but would have zero leverage and would be flat on our backs. It is better to take the unity amongst the profession approach and find solutions that work for all pilots, direct the energy and resources towards the issues that need it and not each other.
Leaving ALPA may sound good, but as I posted some 6000 posts ago, the unintended consequences reach a lot farther than this section 6. All of the reasons listed are proof to why it is a lot simpler to fix the problems we have then to try to build a new house. This list of potential threats is long, and all of them really only afford us one change to get them right.
10-10-2011, 01:06 PM
#6476
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
DCI isn't my worry as much as Air France, Emirate, Virgin and their buddies are. I'm just calling the trends and trying to explain the defensive plays.
Management does not care about burning down houses in Peachtree City when they live in Buckhead and Manhattan. Comair's living in their former tool shed and our other siblings were adopted by the highest bidder.
Just looking at the numbers, Delta is more than happy to broker tickets and fill airplanes operated by other airlines. In the last ten years I've seen nearly no indication Delta has an interest in taking market share except for a brief pop of activity from the quickly deposed Jim Whitehurst.
IMHO, our current management would engage in self help.
By the way anyone seen how Red Hat is doing? That stock has doubled since Jim's been there.
Management does not care about burning down houses in Peachtree City when they live in Buckhead and Manhattan. Comair's living in their former tool shed and our other siblings were adopted by the highest bidder.
Just looking at the numbers, Delta is more than happy to broker tickets and fill airplanes operated by other airlines. In the last ten years I've seen nearly no indication Delta has an interest in taking market share except for a brief pop of activity from the quickly deposed Jim Whitehurst.
IMHO, our current management would engage in self help.
By the way anyone seen how Red Hat is doing? That stock has doubled since Jim's been there.
We're not in BK anymore and hopefully we've learned our lesson.
I also believe that JV, international code sharing and cabotage are a bigger threat in the future.
10-10-2011, 01:29 PM
#6477
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Scambo, Fly4Hire and Bar have effectively explained why the RJ pilot issue is a red herring.
Also at the last BOD when no one was running for Sean's job a OH pilot stood up and wanted to take the position, he was not just shot down my mainline pilots, he was also shot down by the RJ pilots as well.
He wasn't just shot down. Sean wasn't even running and was nominated on the floor as an attempt to prevent said OH pilot from getting the nod, and won with the support of the RJ delegates.
These RJ pilots that are represented by ALPA want us to get our scope in order so they can come here. Ten plus years of stagnation have stunk, but alas they are finally seeing the writing on the RJ wall. Like rats on a sinking ship, they are trying to go anywhere they can.
+1 This is a point that gets lost in all the hyperbole. They have our backs more often than not, and we give them something they could never achieve on their own. While counter intuitive on a superficial level, having the DCI carriers not in ALPA, or DAL out, would facilitate exactly what proponents of DPA say the conflict of interest is now.
Also at the last BOD when no one was running for Sean's job a OH pilot stood up and wanted to take the position, he was not just shot down my mainline pilots, he was also shot down by the RJ pilots as well.
He wasn't just shot down. Sean wasn't even running and was nominated on the floor as an attempt to prevent said OH pilot from getting the nod, and won with the support of the RJ delegates.
These RJ pilots that are represented by ALPA want us to get our scope in order so they can come here. Ten plus years of stagnation have stunk, but alas they are finally seeing the writing on the RJ wall. Like rats on a sinking ship, they are trying to go anywhere they can.
+1 This is a point that gets lost in all the hyperbole. They have our backs more often than not, and we give them something they could never achieve on their own. While counter intuitive on a superficial level, having the DCI carriers not in ALPA, or DAL out, would facilitate exactly what proponents of DPA say the conflict of interest is now.
In doing so they have, in my opinion, further alienated and exacerbated the problem while attempting to fix it, and have given the impression that it is more about protecting the organization than it is the pilots they represent, which could not be further from the truth.
While the DPA claims to be a grass roots organization with 3700 members, typically less than 30 people show up at a LEC meeting for a base with thousands of pilots. I have a hard time making the jump from the current apathy to the claimed effectiveness of DPA given that these same grass roots proponents don't show up and vote and could literally remake the MEC in short order should they not be as apathetic as everyone else.
Based on objective measures, and the battles that lie ahead from contractual to industry to legislative, there is no way I can see the proposed alternative agent being more effective than what we have, thorns and all, and would likely be far less effective.
The real enemy here, if there is one, is not ALPA or DPA, but pilot apathy, and the fact it gives rise to the ability for a small group to have to make best guess decisions for you without your input, when the tools to direct and change your union are written into our constitution and bylaws.
I've heard all the arguments that they've tried and it won't work, entrenched ALPA lifers, etc, etc. and I don't buy it. The numbers of who participates are hard facts. The fact is the same apathy present now will be present with any successor, and it will just be a different small group calling the shots, albeit less effectively, and the same people complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the next group.
Last edited by Fly4hire; 10-10-2011 at 02:09 PM.
10-10-2011, 02:13 PM
#6478
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Unfortunately some ALPA volunteers, while well intentioned, have through some bad advice, treated this alternative representation issue as if it was treasonous, and have exercised a form of ALPA McCarthyism against our fellow pilots, coworkers, and dues paying members for what is a right under the law and our own constitution - the right to vote for the other guy.
In doing so they have, in my opinion, further alienated and exacerbated the problem while attempting to fix it, and have given the impression that it is more about protecting the organization than it is the pilots they represent, which could not be further from the truth.
While the DPA claims to be a grass roots organization with 3700 members, typically less than 30 people show up at a LEC meeting for a base with thousands of pilots. I have a hard time making the jump from the current apathy to the claimed effectiveness of DPA given that these same grass roots proponents don't show up and vote and could literally remake the MEC in short order should they not be as apathetic as everyone else.
Based on objective measures, and the battles that lie ahead from contractual to industry to legislative, there is no way I can see the proposed alternative agent being more effective than what we have, thorns and all, and would likely be far less effective.
I've heard all the arguments that they've tried and it won't work, entrenched ALPA lifers, etc, etc. and I don't buy it. The numbers of who participates are hard facts. The fact is the same apathy present now will be present with any successor, and it will just be a different small group calling the shots, albeit less effectively, and the same people complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the next group.
In doing so they have, in my opinion, further alienated and exacerbated the problem while attempting to fix it, and have given the impression that it is more about protecting the organization than it is the pilots they represent, which could not be further from the truth.
While the DPA claims to be a grass roots organization with 3700 members, typically less than 30 people show up at a LEC meeting for a base with thousands of pilots. I have a hard time making the jump from the current apathy to the claimed effectiveness of DPA given that these same grass roots proponents don't show up and vote and could literally remake the MEC in short order should they not be as apathetic as everyone else.
Based on objective measures, and the battles that lie ahead from contractual to industry to legislative, there is no way I can see the proposed alternative agent being more effective than what we have, thorns and all, and would likely be far less effective.
I've heard all the arguments that they've tried and it won't work, entrenched ALPA lifers, etc, etc. and I don't buy it. The numbers of who participates are hard facts. The fact is the same apathy present now will be present with any successor, and it will just be a different small group calling the shots, albeit less effectively, and the same people complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the next group.
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
#6480
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Unfortunately some ALPA volunteers, while well intentioned, have through some bad advice, treated this alternative representation issue as if it was treasonous, and have exercised a form of ALPA McCarthyism against our fellow pilots, coworkers, and dues paying members for what is a right under the law and our own constitution - the right to vote for the other guy.
In doing so they have, in my opinion, further alienated and exacerbated the problem while attempting to fix it, and have given the impression that it is more about protecting the organization than it is the pilots they represent, which could not be further from the truth.
While the DPA claims to be a grass roots organization with 3700 members, typically less than 30 people show up at a LEC meeting for a base with thousands of pilots. I have a hard time making the jump from the current apathy to the claimed effectiveness of DPA given that these same grass roots proponents don't show up and vote and could literally remake the MEC in short order should they not be as apathetic as everyone else.
Based on objective measures, and the battles that lie ahead from contractual to industry to legislative, there is no way I can see the proposed alternative agent being more effective than what we have, thorns and all, and would likely be far less effective.
I've heard all the arguments that they've tried and it won't work, entrenched ALPA lifers, etc, etc. and I don't buy it. The numbers of who participates are hard facts. The fact is the same apathy present now will be present with any successor, and it will just be a different small group calling the shots, albeit less effectively, and the same people complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the next group.
In doing so they have, in my opinion, further alienated and exacerbated the problem while attempting to fix it, and have given the impression that it is more about protecting the organization than it is the pilots they represent, which could not be further from the truth.
While the DPA claims to be a grass roots organization with 3700 members, typically less than 30 people show up at a LEC meeting for a base with thousands of pilots. I have a hard time making the jump from the current apathy to the claimed effectiveness of DPA given that these same grass roots proponents don't show up and vote and could literally remake the MEC in short order should they not be as apathetic as everyone else.
Based on objective measures, and the battles that lie ahead from contractual to industry to legislative, there is no way I can see the proposed alternative agent being more effective than what we have, thorns and all, and would likely be far less effective.
I've heard all the arguments that they've tried and it won't work, entrenched ALPA lifers, etc, etc. and I don't buy it. The numbers of who participates are hard facts. The fact is the same apathy present now will be present with any successor, and it will just be a different small group calling the shots, albeit less effectively, and the same people complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the next group.
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