Delta Pilots Association
05-15-2011, 07:00 AM
#5472
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by PCL_128
A press release from ATN ALPA, highlighting the use of the word "outsourcing" that you claim ALPA refuses to use:
Originally Posted by PCL_128
Press Release
Source: Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l
On 6:25 pm EST, Wednesday November 4, 2009
ATLANTA--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Union leaders for the AirTran pilots issued the following statement in response to their airline’s announcement that AirTran [NYSE: AAI] has reached an agreement with SkyWest to operate five CRJ-200 aircraft—in SkyWest livery—between seven cities. AirTran pilots, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), have been in contract negotiations for five years and are seeking guarantees that the company will not farm out work to the lowest bidder.
“The pilots of AirTran are deeply concerned that our management is outsourcing flying, even while the company’s mainline growth has been stagnant for the past two years. While we applaud any moves by the company to increase profitability, we strongly believe that AirTran customers expect and deserve to be flown on AirTran planes with AirTran pilots in the cockpit.
“Outsourcing AirTran flying to a regional carrier runs the risk of diminishing the travel experience in the eyes of our customers, and goes directly against the business model that has made this company a success. AirTran is known for its business class seats, XM Radio and WiFi Internet access, none of which would be provided on a 50-seat Regional Jet (RJ).
“AirTran has been marketing its full-sized aircraft in Milwaukee as a more comfortable alternative to Republic Holdings’ smaller RJs. It would be unfortunate if AirTran were to cede that advantage as it works to gain market share in the Midwest.
“Furthermore, it is unclear how the utilization of RJs in 2010 would be any more successful than it was in 2003, when the company ended AirTran Jet-Connect.
“As partners in the success of this airline, we are asking AirTran management to work with the pilots and other employees in the future to encourage the growth of the company from within—as they’ve done in the past with notable success.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilots union, representing nearly 53,000 pilots at 36 airlines in the United States and Canada. For more information, go to PilotContractNow.com.
Source: Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l
On 6:25 pm EST, Wednesday November 4, 2009
ATLANTA--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Union leaders for the AirTran pilots issued the following statement in response to their airline’s announcement that AirTran [NYSE: AAI] has reached an agreement with SkyWest to operate five CRJ-200 aircraft—in SkyWest livery—between seven cities. AirTran pilots, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), have been in contract negotiations for five years and are seeking guarantees that the company will not farm out work to the lowest bidder.
“The pilots of AirTran are deeply concerned that our management is outsourcing flying, even while the company’s mainline growth has been stagnant for the past two years. While we applaud any moves by the company to increase profitability, we strongly believe that AirTran customers expect and deserve to be flown on AirTran planes with AirTran pilots in the cockpit.
“Outsourcing AirTran flying to a regional carrier runs the risk of diminishing the travel experience in the eyes of our customers, and goes directly against the business model that has made this company a success. AirTran is known for its business class seats, XM Radio and WiFi Internet access, none of which would be provided on a 50-seat Regional Jet (RJ).
“AirTran has been marketing its full-sized aircraft in Milwaukee as a more comfortable alternative to Republic Holdings’ smaller RJs. It would be unfortunate if AirTran were to cede that advantage as it works to gain market share in the Midwest.
“Furthermore, it is unclear how the utilization of RJs in 2010 would be any more successful than it was in 2003, when the company ended AirTran Jet-Connect.
“As partners in the success of this airline, we are asking AirTran management to work with the pilots and other employees in the future to encourage the growth of the company from within—as they’ve done in the past with notable success.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilots union, representing nearly 53,000 pilots at 36 airlines in the United States and Canada. For more information, go to PilotContractNow.com.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
No, step 1 is to even articulate that as a goal. At that, ALPA has failed and has continued to fail by not even mentioning the word outsourcing. Of course, ALPA doesn't feel like their IS outsourcing...because they represent all sides. You know, that "alleged" conflict of interest.
Carl
05-15-2011, 07:04 AM
#5473
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 459
Carl, it's not Captain Moak who talks out of both sides of his mouth, it's you. When it's convenient for you, you claim that ALPA National controls everything, even at the local level. When it's not convenient for you, you claim that they are separated, and the local MEC does things itself. You want ALPA National to take all of the blame for anything you perceive as wrong, and give the local MEC credit for anything you perceive as good. You are the most intellectually dishonest person on this forum. But that's fine, as it's blatantly obvious to everyone here, and you have zero credibility.
05-15-2011, 07:17 AM
#5474
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Carl, DPA stated on their website that they had to have the required number of cards in by 31Dec10 and the vote done and DPA as the representational unit by summer in order to both be ready for contract negotiations and try and build a war chest. Can you tell us what happened to those statements. Why did they go away? What changed with DPA leadership. What do they feel is a reasonable time frame. How high will dues be to build a war chest in a very short time frame? I asked those questions and never got an answer. Perhaps you can provide one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA
05-15-2011, 07:22 AM
#5475
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
You make a good post.
Ok... then you write:
Sounds like the RJDC "jokers" might have had a entirely legitimate point.
Originally Posted by PCL_128
The concept of bargaining credits for scope giveaways has been around since at least the late '90s. It's one of the things that the jokers at the RJDC used to talk about so often, complaining that mainline pilots were just thinking of them as "bargaining credits" to get bigger pay raises.
Originally Posted by PCL_128
a... great idea came up! "We'll give you a "bargaining credit" of $100 million if you agree to allow X number of 70-seaters to be outsourced." Suddenly $100 million existed to be added to the pay rate tables, and pilots, being greedy and shortsighted as always, jumped at the opportunity.
When bankruptcy rolled around, the bargaining credit concept wasn't used to offset the effects of pay raises anymore, it was instead used to give the union credit for cost cuts that the company demanded and claimed in bankruptcy court that they needed. It was always the same concept, just applied differently whether it was a good bargaining cycle or a concessionary bargaining cycle.
When bankruptcy rolled around, the bargaining credit concept wasn't used to offset the effects of pay raises anymore, it was instead used to give the union credit for cost cuts that the company demanded and claimed in bankruptcy court that they needed. It was always the same concept, just applied differently whether it was a good bargaining cycle or a concessionary bargaining cycle.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-15-2011 at 07:53 AM.
05-15-2011, 07:24 AM
#5476
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by PCL_128
All lies.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The locals depend a great deal on national for everything from funding to legal and financial experts...not to mention negotiations "experts".
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
For you to insinuate that pilots make all the decisions and "ALPA doesn't do anything" is utterly false and you know it.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The truth is that ALPA national has ALWAYS managed the process of local decision making by complete control of finances and experts.
Originally Posted by PCL_128
You're just a disgrace.
Carl
05-15-2011, 07:34 AM
#5477
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Carl, DPA stated on their website that they had to have the required number of cards in by 31Dec10 and the vote done and DPA as the representational unit by summer in order to both be ready for contract negotiations and try and build a war chest. Can you tell us what happened to those statements. Why did they go away?
Originally Posted by sailingfun
What changed with DPA leadership. What do they feel is a reasonable time frame. How high will dues be to build a war chest in a very short time frame? I asked those questions and never got an answer. Perhaps you can provide one.
I have a question for you: How much pilot dues money do you think a DPA will give out to other airline members who directly compete with us?
Carl
05-15-2011, 07:47 AM
#5478
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Carl,
The DPA must realize the clock is ticking. Section 6 will galvanize the pilot group, just as it always does. With every day there is less and less of a realistic expectation that DPA could be prepared to negotiate our PWA.
Truthfully, I was considering sending in a card, but the DPA has never provided their positions with enough clarity for me to gain the confidence that they are significantly different than what we have now.
The DPA might be better served trying to recall who ever it has a beef with. As for the "conflict of interest" allegation the facts clearly show those responsible for our scope occupy our own cockpits.
The DPA must realize the clock is ticking. Section 6 will galvanize the pilot group, just as it always does. With every day there is less and less of a realistic expectation that DPA could be prepared to negotiate our PWA.
Truthfully, I was considering sending in a card, but the DPA has never provided their positions with enough clarity for me to gain the confidence that they are significantly different than what we have now.
The DPA might be better served trying to recall who ever it has a beef with. As for the "conflict of interest" allegation the facts clearly show those responsible for our scope occupy our own cockpits.
05-15-2011, 07:48 AM
#5479
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 459
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Are you saying the locals get their money directly from the members and not ALPA national?
My statement above stands as the truth. Are you saying you meant it when you said: "ALPA doesn't do anything"? If you actually meant that, you're clearly lying here dude.
05-15-2011, 07:50 AM
#5480
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by PCL_128
What's so surprising about an ALPA president saying that ALPA will provide all available resources to assist pilots in negotiations? That's not exactly front page news.
Originally Posted by PCL_128
1. "ALPA" doesn't do anything. Pilots make decisions, then the national organization gets unfairly blamed for decisions made by pilots at the local level. ALPA is not some all-powerful entity that forces pilots to make certain decisions. Pilots ignore the advice of the attorneys almost as often as they follow it, and it almost always bites them in the ass later when they do.
Carl
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