Mesabah

It's not so much greed as it is fear. Management has us by the balls with the seniority system. I know several pilots at the major level that have been captains at the mainline since their late 20's, early 30's. Now they are in their late 50's and living paycheck to paycheck. What happened to their millions in career earnings? They'll vote for anything as long as it doesn't effect them and the money keeps coming in.

This is the root of the problem in this profession, how do you solve it? At Mesaba, we knew that selling out to MAIR would possibly result in every job being lost at Mesaba. This fact created the unity necessary to prevent the loss of scope. This is the very reason management did not or will not go after anything larger than the psychological limit its pilots will accept. If they over step and pilots start voting with their feet, the game is up.

Carl Spackler

I say that because it is the truth. The locals get all their money from national. The locals get almost all of their expertise from national. It's not my convenient opinion, it's the truth.

What on Earth are you talking about? Do you not read my posts at all? For the last 5,000 plus posts here, my main complaint is that our local is hamstrung by a bloated and conflicted national union with its own national agenda. That is the MAIN REASON that I'm supporting a DPA.

Are your debate positions so weak that you have to resort to just making things up?

I'm really glad your posting here pcl...seriously. I'm thrilled that people get to see one of ALPA national's officers at work here. It's good they see how you handle yourself. It's very telling for me. It makes me very hopeful about a DPA someday at Delta, because you're proof that our bench at ALPA is pretty weak.

Carl

DAL 88 Driver

Bar,

Maybe the following will provide a little better understanding of DPA's "positions."
__________________________________________________ ______
Today marks the first anniversary of the inception of the Delta Pilots Association, now 2,600 members strong and growing. One year ago, on May 15th, 2010, an average line pilot and happily married father of three teenagers decided he could not tolerate 20 more years of inadequate representation. With the permission of his family, he postponed all home improvement projects, parked his golf game, set aside business interests, delayed his '68 VW Bug restoration and set out to build a new union instead.

A fellow DPA member recently asked for more information about DPA leadership and a seniority list rumor. The following response was given:

********
Item one focuses on other names. The ATL Surge Week enjoyed the support of many South/North Captains and First Officers giving up their time to push this ahead for us. It was my distinct pleasure to have Captain John Malone present during the Surge Week for two hours showing his support. Captain Jeff Joslin has made many public statements in support of DPA. Go read his blog at transformalpa or check it out as one of the earliest articles under the DPA News Tab. If you head over to Delta Pilots Association - Home and click on the stats graph, you will see that ATL now has a noticeable lead over DTW. If you click on the Member Testimonial tab, you can read many visible displays of support for DPA. The Board of Directors has been public since last September, see the FAQ for more details. Remember, we are building an organization from the ground up. I am merely providing the conduit for that to occur. I have opened the door for Safety and Contract Committee volunteers to begin organizing. Many highly qualified volunteers are on the DPA list. Some are even current. This task of creating an option for all of us is a supreme challenge. I have made it a priority to deflate personalities and expand the collaborative aspect. I don't want you to focus on a particular person until ALL Delta Pilots get a chance to look at their resume and vote for their service. Anyone on staff right now is just focused solely on providing ALL OF US with an option. John and Jeff aren't taking a leadership role because, like the rest of us, they don't want to detract from the overall mission. I hope you see DPA as a growing group of like-minded individuals, not just one or two specific personalities.

Item two speaks of the SLI. That issue is dead. There is no secret plot to overturn the list. It is not possible. When we majority voted in the JCBA, we agreed to the yet-undetermined list voluntarily and we ensured that a USAir type secession could not happen due to a lack of contract. That was the reason ALPA put the JCBA out there before the list was determined. I congratulate ALPA for how they played this thorny issue. However, ALPA did not account for the additional high level of dissatisfaction that lack of transparency, conflict of interest and lacking services would produce. A peacetime withdrawal like DPA is accomplishing caught ALPA completely by surprise. They still don't appreciate how big the problem is. How could almost 2,600 pilots be unhappy enough to be willing to endure the risk of establishing independence? Because the problem goes way beyond any one person's agenda. Independence proponents believe they can accomplish more once separated from an oppressive structure that serves itself. But all Delta Pilots are not expected to agree with independence. Even in the American Revolution, there were Americans who opposed independence as ALPA proponents do, they were called Loyalists. A Loyalist did not want America to become independent, but instead wanted to remain under English rule. In the end, they either had to support America or leave. Here is a quick look at how the patriot forefathers got their struggle for independence off the ground (this tidbit was found on www.delta7studios.com):

The Green Dragon Tavern
Meeting place for patriots of the American Revolution

The Green Dragon Tavern in Boston is sometimes called the "Headquarters of the Revolution" by historians. In this place several secret groups met, and many of the patriots that would come to be forever linked with the foundation of the United States. The building itself is gone now, but a small ink and watercolor drawing still survives, as do the stories of what transpired within.

The tavern itself was actually in the basement while the upper rooms were used for meetings, weddings and parties. In 1764, it was purchased by the Masons of St. Andrews Lodge for use as their hall, but it remained a tavern in daily public use.

Among the ranks of The St. Andrews were patriot heroes Dr. Joseph Warren, and Paul Revere. The Green Dragon became the meeting place for The Sons of Liberty, Boston Committee of Correspondence and the North End Caucus (with members Sam and John Adams) all of whom were linchpins and coordinators of the revolutionary movement. This is where the leaders of The Boston Tea Party met and planned their amazing bit of political theatrics.

Paul Revere later described in his memoirs "About thirty persons, chiefly North-End mechanics, had agreed to watch the movements of the British soldiers and the Tories, in anticipation of their descent on Concord. These patriots met at the Green Dragon Tavern. We were so careful, that our meetings should be kept secret, that every time we met, every person swore upon the Bible that they (he) would not discover any of our transactions, but to Messrs. Hancock, Drs. Warren and Church, and one or two more leaders. They took turns to watch the soldiers, two by two, by patrolling the streets all night." (None of them yet knew that Dr. Church was a Loyalist spy.)

From the Green Dragon, Dr. Warren sent Revere on the celebrated alarm ride to Lexington carrying with him a coded message to John Hancock. Finally in January 1788, a meeting of the mechanics and artisans of Boston was held at the Green Dragon Tavern, and there passed a series of resolutions urging the importance of adopting the Federal Constitution that was then pending before a Convention of delegates from different parts of the State. If the Boston Tea Party can be said to be one of the beginning strokes of the American Revolution, then certainly this petition to adopt the Federal Constitution was one of the closing, both of which came out of The Green Dragon Tavern.

You know from history that all the leaders of the Revolution emerged over time and DPA is different only in that some of us have disregarded the ALPA juggernaut and placed our names on DPA early in the process. Our intentions are well-known by our opposition and the message of DPA is running strong in spite of the opportunity ALPA has to counter our main points. The American people were dissatisfied enough to put their lives in jeopardy. Delta Pilots only have to mail in an Authorization Card.

You suggest ALPA will chant "Unity or Failure in Contract Negotiations". If they were smart, they would chant, "Southwest PLUS and All Seats over 50 are Mainline" or something substantial like that. But they won't.....the regionals would file a DFR suit immediately....AND WIN!

We are making progress in the right direction. It is just a matter of time. When considering the time available to prepare and negotiate our desires, bear in mind that the DPA Contract Survey opened to members last October. ALPA has yet to post such a survey. The amendable date is 12/31/2012 and when has ALPA ever signed a contract on the amendable date? We are looking at years before ALPA can produce a contract if history is correct. If we allow ALPA to hack away at our next contract once again, we are just asking for more loopholes in scope and inadequate restoration of pay. I personally would rather see us focus solely on improving the lives of Delta Pilots exclusively! We certainly can do no worse in the same timeframe as ALPA will likely consume.

**********

Carl Spackler

My personal disappointment notwithstanding, I believe this is the case as we get closer to Section 6. ALPA could still tip things over the edge by refusing to file a grievance over RAH after the May meeting, but right now DPA has a big hill to climb. We've always known that.

As I've posted many times before, you are only half correct. The folks who occupy the cockpits share about half the blame, but ALPA shares the other half. It is inexcusable that ALPA national's legal experts (the best legal minds money can buy) could have not been screaming from the mountain tops that any changes in scope can never be won back via strike. ALPA's representation of all sides of the competitive environment is not an alleged conflict of interest. It is the very definition of a conflict of interest.

Carl

Mesabah

Who here is familiar with the NWALPA NSTAR proposal, where mainline seniority list pilots would be sent down to the regionals to fly at regional rates. The proposal came from the MEC and not national, however, management rejected this proposal. Did it ever make it to the bankruptcy judge, what was judge Gropper's take on it?

shiznit

Incorrect. Completely false.

So these guys are blaming ALPA for not firming up a contract on an amendable date? Wow, I know ALPA isn't perfect but you can't blame them for the RLA and its limitations.

ALPA represented pilot groups have PRODUCED a lot more gains than any independent union has ever produced. Ask any FDX pilot who was around for no union, ALPA, FPA, and back to ALPA what they think of independent union strength versus ALPA strength.

"Hack away at our next contract..." Nice use of emotional trigger words, kinda lacking in substance. Care to back that up with anything factual outside of 1113/BK process or a MEMRAT?

Still not nearly enough to convince me that it is a good idea to split, I've still yet to see any concrete examples of how the independent route will yield me more benefits than I have through ALPA.

Carl Spackler

Only a portion of our dues money is automatically deposited BY ALPA NATIONAL. Your statements are just more spin from another national officer. My statement below is absolutely correct, and your reference to it as a lie is...sick:

I know you think you're very clever, but most of us see your word games for what they are. You continue to insinuate that locals make all their own decisions unimpeded by anything from ALPA national. You say that "ALPA doesn't do anything". I've said that the locals dependence on national for legal ADVICE, negotiations EXPERTISE and FINANCES above the normal operating budgets allows ALPA national to drive negotiations toward the goal of contracts that are not "self-interested", but rather what is best for the profession as a whole...as decided by ALPA national.

Your constant use of the word "decisions" is one of the reasons that ALPA members are so disgusted with ALPA's communcations. ALPA has responded by flooding us with communications, but with the same duplicitous spin that you've just illustrated.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Actually, you should blame DALPA. Unless things have changed, Section 6 can begin earlier than stated by mutual agreement. That means DALPA would have to ask, and management would have to agree. To my knowledge, DALPA has not even asked.

What would be wrong with going to management and demanding a start to Section 6 right now due to the fact that we have endured emergency contract provisions long after the emergency ceased, and we'll continue to do so for at least another 19 months? If management said yes, it would signal a great start and buy management huge credit for understanding that emergency contract provisions AFTER 2012 would be a massive insult to this pilot group. If they told us to go pound sand, that would tell us something as well. But the bottom line is, DALPA won't even ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit

ALPA represented pilot groups have PRODUCED a lot more gains than any independent union has ever produced. Ask any FDX pilot who was around for no union, ALPA, FPA, and back to ALPA what they think of independent union strength versus ALPA strength.

True. But ALPA has also PRODUCED bigger collapses than any other independent union.

Carl

Carl Spakler

I've been hearing from Cactus guys around the system that USAPA is almost bankrupt.
Can someone offer some insight about DPA's financial relationship with the law firm of & Seham?
I read that the guys that started USAPA had to sign a services agreement with Seham while that union was embryonic.
Reportedly, Seham did work for USAPA's founders "on spec", resulting in a long-term commitment of USAPA to use Seham for some time.
I'm wondering if that's where all USAPA's money is going.

Carl Spakler

"Unless things have changed, Section 6 can begin earlier than stated by mutual agreement"

My undstanding is the two parties can enter into all-encompassing renegotiation of the contract whenever they mutually agree to. The parties are obligated to do it in Section 6. If you mutually agree to do it early, it's not called Section 6.

I've been asking myself this: If the MEC made numerous improvements through a series LOA's and everything that needs fixing gets fixed, is that just as good as calling it Section 6?

Why/Why Not?