Delta Pilots Association
05-14-2011, 07:27 PM
#5461
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by PCL_128
What evidence do you have that ALPA advised any such thing? Attorneys don't run ALPA. Decisions are all made by pilots. Unfortunately, the attorneys usually know best, but pilots ignore them. I've been doing union work for a good while now. In my experience, pilots only listen to the advice of attorneys about 60% of the time. The other 40%, they usually end up regretting that they didn't. As someone who has observed scope negotiations first hand with some of ALPA's most senior attorneys in the room, I can tell you that there is never any pressure to concede scope. If anything, the attorneys encourage pilots to be very careful about trading scope.
Again, this paragraph of yours is such a distorted mess, it borders on a flat out lie.
Carl
05-14-2011, 07:34 PM
#5462
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by PCL_128
In short, greed. Money is offered up on a silver platter, and pilots salivate over it and decide that they'd rather sell out the future in order to have more gold today. "I won't be the one to get furloughed," the all say. Only later, after the furloughs and displacements have happened, and the fleet has shrunk, does everyone finally realize just what they've done. And then, of course, they all proclaim "don't blame me, I voted no," even though it ratified by 90%.
Originally Posted by PCL_128
In reality, the President has absolutely nothing to do with what happens with scope.
Carl
05-14-2011, 07:37 PM
#5463
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Mesabah
Yes and No, the case would not help us for the RLA in section 6, however, it has to do with the limited powers of a bankruptcy judge. A lot of pilots are under the belief that the bankruptcy process has the ability to strip the contract of all its worth, however, this couldn't be further from the truth.
In short, none of the concessions that have been taken by pilots over the last 10 years should have happened. There has been a coordinated effort to reduce the value of the profession on both sides of the table. My question is why is this happening?
In short, none of the concessions that have been taken by pilots over the last 10 years should have happened. There has been a coordinated effort to reduce the value of the profession on both sides of the table. My question is why is this happening?
Carl
05-14-2011, 07:41 PM
#5464
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It is a very easy way to get around the case law that you present. With CH11 the company can play innocent sheep with the judge and behind closed doors with the union tell them that unless we get X scope concession we will ask the judge to throw the contract out. Everything you would accuse the company of would be hearsay, as you would have no "proof" and as a result the leverage is not in the Associations favor. Ugly but very plausible when you have the law on your side.
Carl
05-14-2011, 07:45 PM
#5465
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Mesabah
Study the Mesaba bankruptcy and its 1113(c) process. We had our contract thrown out and an injunction filed against us for striking. The company was asking for a 19% pay cut as well as scope relief to allow its other carrier to operate greater than 19 seat aircraft at Big Sky. The judge abrogated our contract, however, he left the scope contract in place; Since he did not have the authority to throw that section out.
The company never imposed a contract on us however, instead we were given a 3% pay cut with 4 year snap backs to our former pay. The pilot group here voted yes on the contract as rumors started circulating that CRJ 900's were coming to the airline. The scope battle however did not end there, it continued as Big Sky was given a contract with Delta airlines to operate a hub out of Boston. Management went judge shopping around the country to find a judge that would allow Big Sky to operate greater than 19 seat aircraft. They wound up suing a Continental pilot in Texas since he was the only ALPA pilot living in the district of the judge they wanted. After the legal battle ensued, the result was the same, our scope contract remained intact. Finally, in a last ditch effort management offered to buy out the scope from the pilots at Mesaba. I believe the offer reached as high as $20,000 per pilot. However, our pilots stood firm and did not sell out, shortly thereafter, Big Sky ceased operations.
The company never imposed a contract on us however, instead we were given a 3% pay cut with 4 year snap backs to our former pay. The pilot group here voted yes on the contract as rumors started circulating that CRJ 900's were coming to the airline. The scope battle however did not end there, it continued as Big Sky was given a contract with Delta airlines to operate a hub out of Boston. Management went judge shopping around the country to find a judge that would allow Big Sky to operate greater than 19 seat aircraft. They wound up suing a Continental pilot in Texas since he was the only ALPA pilot living in the district of the judge they wanted. After the legal battle ensued, the result was the same, our scope contract remained intact. Finally, in a last ditch effort management offered to buy out the scope from the pilots at Mesaba. I believe the offer reached as high as $20,000 per pilot. However, our pilots stood firm and did not sell out, shortly thereafter, Big Sky ceased operations.
Holy ****!
Carl
05-14-2011, 07:55 PM
#5466
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Scambo;
I know "why" they decided to divest compass from our MEC Structure. I to this day disagree with it, and know it was a not the wisest of decisions. Many feel that this seat segment; 76 and below, is dead, and much better for DAL to allow third part operators fly it, than to deal with it in house.
The end effect of CPS is, we get to flow their pilots which is good, but the jets end up at a crack outfit (TSH) who does no favors for its pilots. Pilots come, jobs do not, and the jets are off of DAL's balance sheet. A ten year agreement is reached and by 2020, the argument is that this seat segment will be dead. As a result, it is not worth paying for, as the economics will bring the majority of that back in house.
Big gamble, and as pilots we need to state that all jobs are valuable, and as a result even if we "know" that flying is not coming back without a huge cost, or a legislative rendering, they matter.
I know "why" they decided to divest compass from our MEC Structure. I to this day disagree with it, and know it was a not the wisest of decisions. Many feel that this seat segment; 76 and below, is dead, and much better for DAL to allow third part operators fly it, than to deal with it in house.
The end effect of CPS is, we get to flow their pilots which is good, but the jets end up at a crack outfit (TSH) who does no favors for its pilots. Pilots come, jobs do not, and the jets are off of DAL's balance sheet. A ten year agreement is reached and by 2020, the argument is that this seat segment will be dead. As a result, it is not worth paying for, as the economics will bring the majority of that back in house.
Big gamble, and as pilots we need to state that all jobs are valuable, and as a result even if we "know" that flying is not coming back without a huge cost, or a legislative rendering, they matter.
Carl
05-14-2011, 08:30 PM
#5467
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Really. Did you miss the new president's statement saying that his highest priority in negotiations is to use all of ALPA national's resources to ensure that contracts are negotiated based on what's best for the profession as a whole, and not be self-serving?
Carl
Carl
Here's what he really said: (emphasis added)
ALP: What do you think are or should be ALPA’s highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Moak: There is a myth that exists that suggests that ALPA headquarters drives the agenda at the local level. That’s simply not true.
Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and—through consensus of their members—make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us.
05-14-2011, 11:03 PM
#5468
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 459
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
At that, ALPA has failed and has continued to fail by not even mentioning the word outsourcing. Of course, ALPA doesn't feel like their IS outsourcing...because they represent all sides. You know, that "alleged" conflict of interest.
Press Release
Source: Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l
On 6:25 pm EST, Wednesday November 4, 2009
ATLANTA--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Union leaders for the AirTran pilots issued the following statement in response to their airline’s announcement that AirTran [NYSE: AAI] has reached an agreement with SkyWest to operate five CRJ-200 aircraft—in SkyWest livery—between seven cities. AirTran pilots, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), have been in contract negotiations for five years and are seeking guarantees that the company will not farm out work to the lowest bidder.
“The pilots of AirTran are deeply concerned that our management is outsourcing flying, even while the company’s mainline growth has been stagnant for the past two years. While we applaud any moves by the company to increase profitability, we strongly believe that AirTran customers expect and deserve to be flown on AirTran planes with AirTran pilots in the cockpit.
“Outsourcing AirTran flying to a regional carrier runs the risk of diminishing the travel experience in the eyes of our customers, and goes directly against the business model that has made this company a success. AirTran is known for its business class seats, XM Radio and WiFi Internet access, none of which would be provided on a 50-seat Regional Jet (RJ).
“AirTran has been marketing its full-sized aircraft in Milwaukee as a more comfortable alternative to Republic Holdings’ smaller RJs. It would be unfortunate if AirTran were to cede that advantage as it works to gain market share in the Midwest.
“Furthermore, it is unclear how the utilization of RJs in 2010 would be any more successful than it was in 2003, when the company ended AirTran Jet-Connect.
“As partners in the success of this airline, we are asking AirTran management to work with the pilots and other employees in the future to encourage the growth of the company from within—as they’ve done in the past with notable success.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilots union, representing nearly 53,000 pilots at 36 airlines in the United States and Canada. For more information, go to PilotContractNow.com.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The locals depend a great deal on national for everything from funding to legal and financial experts...not to mention negotiations "experts". For you to insinuate that pilots make all the decisions and "ALPA doesn't do anything" is utterly false and you know it. The truth is that ALPA national has ALWAYS managed the process of local decision making by complete control of finances and experts. The new ALPA president flat out stated that his highest priority in negotiations is to "use all of ALPA national's resources to ensure that contracts benefit the profession as a whole...and not be self-serving.
05-15-2011, 04:48 AM
#5469
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Carl, DPA stated on their website that they had to have the required number of cards in by 31Dec10 and the vote done and DPA as the representational unit by summer in order to both be ready for contract negotiations and try and build a war chest. Can you tell us what happened to those statements. Why did they go away? What changed with DPA leadership. What do they feel is a reasonable time frame. How high will dues be to build a war chest in a very short time frame? I asked those questions and never got an answer. Perhaps you can provide one.
05-15-2011, 06:51 AM
#5470
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Reroute
Here's what he really said: (emphasis added)
ALP: What do you think are or should be ALPA’s highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Moak: There is a myth that exists that suggests that ALPA headquarters drives the agenda at the local level. That’s simply not true.
Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and—through consensus of their members—make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us.
ALP: What do you think are or should be ALPA’s highest priorities in collective bargaining? Contract enforcement? Safety? Security?
Moak: There is a myth that exists that suggests that ALPA headquarters drives the agenda at the local level. That’s simply not true.
Local pilot leaders chart the course of negotiations and—through consensus of their members—make the decisions on priorities. At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us.
At the national and international level, our highest priority is to help pilot leaders at different carriers visualize favorable contract patterns across the industry and provide the resources to reach a contract that ensures the greater good for the entire profession. Contracts that focus solely on self-interests will inevitably lower the high standards that this union has established for eight decades and in the end hurt all of us.
It's nothing new that a politician like Moak would speak out of both sides of his mouth. It's also nothing new to describe ALPA's level of involvement in negotiations. What is new (at least from my recollection) is for the ALPA president to put it in writing.
Carl
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