We already have preferential interviews, and that is a good deal but it is also very soft language.

Heck I advocate getting the MEH guy pref interviews as well. Same spirit; helping fellow ALPA pilots out. I could care less what we do for NON-ALPA and NON-Union pilots.

 

That is true.

Until we have RJ pay scales in our PWA, that statement is pure conjecture on your part.

I see. Step 1 = Get seat economics to improve. Step 2 = ??? Leverage ??? Blah ??? something??? Step 3 = Seat economics changed.

Never happen. There is no way a pilot for Delta Air Lines should accept flying at pay rates currently being accepted at DCI. N.F.W.!!

Highlighted above is the gaping hole in your argument. Your naive assumption that what we do at Delta Air Lines could ever eliminate bottom feeding RJ airlines from offering bottom feeding service at bottom feeding pilot wages. And as such, your plan would fail miserably. The only thing we would get is DCI pilots merged onto our seniority list, and the same problem of being whip-sawed with new bottom feeders.

This is one extremely poorly thought out idea of yours acl.

Surely you don't mean DCI mergers with mainline do you? You must mean DCI mergers to other DCI airlines...right?

Carl

 

Carl;
It simple, I used that phrase to tie your statement about allowing only pilots that have interviewed on to the list. I get confused because I could have sworn you supported the CPS flow which did just the opposite. DAL can still terminate a pilot under the flow, and an agreement with other DCI pilots would be no different because frankly, the company would not pen such an agreement.

Making sure that we act like a true association, and take care of our fellow members is what I am advocating. You want to call it an SLI, but what I am referring to is, simply doing more than we have in the past, and rallying behind the pilots from within our association, and not those who are not. Like I have also said, you could go down a SLI route, but the fact is that; 1) It is our flying, 2) we are not buying anyone, and 3) they would have no leverage, so even if you partook on that path, the tenants of the debate are totally different. I advocate more of a agreement between DCI carriers and DALPA. Like I said, trying to iron out the "how" is what people want to focus on, but in reality, they need to first focus on the "if."

If we want to recapture said flying, what does it say about us, that we would cheer fellow ALPA pilots hitting the street? To me that is in reality the root cause of many of our issues.

 

Correct, but many asset we current do with the 195 rate, and we can see what that has gotten us.


No Carl, first step is to decide to make it a priority to, over time have all DAL coded flying flown on our list. Once you get that part taken care of, which will require probably more time that you have here, you can change the economics of said flying. You CANNOT do it while you are competing with the flying being flow off the list at a current rates.


For the pilots to decide, but isn't that statement what got us to start outsourcing in the first place? Reality is that we allowed, though outsourcing, for the economics to change. We can always wait for the C-Series to arrive, and by default the current DCI jets just wither away, and you do exactly what needed to be done. The economics of the seat class kill DCI, but language needs to be changed, so that, a RJ with a GTF does not come in and renew the whole cycle. Either way, ALPA pilots will be on the street, and we will be cheering. That does not impress me. Helping fellow ALPA aviators out should not just be desired, but expected.


Carl, the economics will eliminate them, and like I have said, we as a union should want to help our fellow ALPA pilots out.

You are correct, it is not a one dimensional issue, and contractual changes would need to be made.




I echoed what Alfa wrote; We should champion DCI carriers merging with each other. We should champion all flying be performed by our list, and we should champion taking care of fellow ALPA pilots; whatever that action may be, but sitting there and cheering their demise is not one of them.

 

I don't like to see anyone on the street either. But reality is that they should have never had those jobs in the first place. Those are Delta pilot jobs they have taken. If we take those jobs back and they end up on the street, then they have every opportunity to apply to Delta and, if chosen, go through the interview process to be evaluated for potential hiring at Delta Air Lines. They're already had a significant boost to their careers by virtue of the fact that they've had the opportunity to build tons of quality multi-engine jet time. It shouldn't be difficult for the vast majority of them to get hired here at Delta, if this is where they would like to work.

 

DAL88, saying someone should have not taken a job that we freely let go of is overly simplistic and easy to state from our position. It is like Carl telling guys they should have gone and done 135 when all of their buddies were going the regionals and a few years later sitting in a mainline jet. Pilots will go where there are jobs. Part of the fault lies with us, and the other part comes from the overall ignorance of young pilots that frankly have no idea about the pitfalls of the industry. ALPA's education committee is very slowly educating pilots on this industry a career. It is a first, and something I would have appreciated many years ago, but alas, regionals were prop operators back then too.

Yes, those jobs exerted downward pressure on our wages, but we are the ones that allowed them to exist at those companies to begin with.

This notion of building quality time is just plain funny. If you think that Glass EFIS Category D jet PIC time is just good sound time building, then we will just disagree. Heck coming here I had to do a scan that I had not done in six plus years. This argument might have held water before the overall quality of the training at the regionals changed about a decade ago. These airlines morphed from little prop airlines to National airlines that flew high performance jets. The training is excellent at almost all regionals. I can attest to that, as I used to administer it. That training and expecations have allowed RJ drivers to come to this airline and thrive on the type of training we do. Most are self starters.

The insane requirement for jet time as being competitive for a major job only came about because it was there. If these RJ's had not arrived, DAL would be hiring pilots with turbo prop time alone. It is just the way the market changed.

In the end, sitting in our corners does nothing to change the industry. Pilots like Joe Merchant will spout off about the realities of why he stayed at ASA (BTW he is not junior and is very senior there) What we need to do is think outside of the traditional lines of thinking, talk about pros and cons (respectfully) with each other, and in the end find a way to stop outsourcing, promote in-sourcing by any means possible, and unify as a profession. Until that even occurs, it is business usual, and we can expect the same results. I look forward to your ideas, because frankly, our best thinking go us to where we are today, with small lift operators performing way to much of a mainlines flying.

Should value to our Association to the next generation is important, not just for us, but for the profession as a whole. Right now no one sees value in being unified on a National level. There is a lot of weight to that statement, and that is why, industry wide, we need to reinvent the wheel so to speak, and do it unified not divided in to separate associations.

 

DPA as it's currently 'structured' is doomed to fail imo. (and no I am not a DALPA mole). why do I say this?

Because anytime I have run into anyone from DALPA of any importance their mantra has been : "If DPA succeeds at DAL they are going to go to court and overturn the Seniority List as USAir did and attempt to get d.o.h."

So far the only public name and face of DPA is a relatively junior 'former North' FO who was quite disgruntled with his # prior to checking out of mainstream comm. This plays right into the hands of DALPA's counteroffensive of course.

If he gets a mix of South and North, Junior and Senior, to go public with him so he is not the only one signing all the letters and Comm. that may allay some of the South fears and make things a lot sportier. Until that time sending in a card for more info, or to put pressure on ALPA is one thing, but voting in DPA would be a whole different story imo.

 

You're missing my point... or I may not have stated it clearly enough.

I am not saying that they shouldn't have taken those jobs. If their goal is to fly for a major airline (which I have to think that is the goal of the vast majority of them), then absolutely, I think they were smart to take a regional job that allows them to build the experience necessary to get the interview and ultimately a job at a major.

But those were still OUR jobs. I don't fault them for taking them. Like you said, we are the ones who voted our jobs away. But they should understand if those jobs come back to where they should have been in the first place (mainline) and they should just be happy they had the opportunity to build time that the major airline hiring departments feel is valuable. Now they're all set to be competitive for that major airline position, and there are many more jobs available at that level. Good for them! What a great position to be in! I wish them the best of luck in getting the interview and getting hired, and I look forward to flying with the ones who are the most competitive and are successful in the hiring process and in training.

It has truly been an honor and privilege to fly with the outstanding aviators and individuals we have been hiring, most of whom have come from regional airlines. I see nothing wrong with that process.

 

I am a south guy. I am pretty sure at this point the binding arbitration is binding - we are integrated...unlike usair/amwest.

As far as the DPA "leadership" goes, it has been surmised on here in the past that they actually have currently enough bodies to effect changes within DALPA - IOW a more "union-like" agenda. I personally think they should mobilize the troops. If they dont, I think their motives are suspect.

 

Kind of been my point for some time now. Use the card count to see if you can affect change from within.