Delta Pilots Association
09-22-2010, 06:24 AM
#361
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Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Check Essential
No string pullers have been revealed as of yet.
There might not be any.
It appears maybe the DPA founders have just set up an infrastructure for giving the Delta pilots a choice in their representation to see how much interest there really is. If it takes off, they intend to find the future leaders among those who sign up.
That might be the smartest strategy. Set up the legal framework, with very little pre-ordained structure, personnel or policies and let the people who join the movement define all that later.
True grass roots democracy right from the get-go.
There might not be any.
It appears maybe the DPA founders have just set up an infrastructure for giving the Delta pilots a choice in their representation to see how much interest there really is. If it takes off, they intend to find the future leaders among those who sign up.
That might be the smartest strategy. Set up the legal framework, with very little pre-ordained structure, personnel or policies and let the people who join the movement define all that later.
True grass roots democracy right from the get-go.
09-22-2010, 06:25 AM
#362
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
If DALPA was so concerned about a proliferation of "large small jets", why wasn't Compass merged into Delta, setting a precedent for recapturing at least some of the small-jet flying?
Carl
09-22-2010, 06:27 AM
#363
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by upndsky
And this is where I disagree. Stagnation in the past decade has forced many at the regionals to become lifers. I came from the regionals and I know many who have been there 10+ years who have resigned themselves to finishing their careers there.
The threat isn't 50-seaters. It's the regional lifers who now want to maximize the size of the aircraft they fly and therefore their paycheck, even if it means at the expense of mainline. And the percentage that want that is greater than 1%, as you seem to imply. Ask the top third at any large regional like Skywest, ASA, ExpressJet, Republic, etc and you will find many who have no intention or hope of moving on and are willing to fight for everything they can get. And since they pay more in dues than a regional newhire trying to build time, their voices will be heard.
The threat isn't 50-seaters. It's the regional lifers who now want to maximize the size of the aircraft they fly and therefore their paycheck, even if it means at the expense of mainline. And the percentage that want that is greater than 1%, as you seem to imply. Ask the top third at any large regional like Skywest, ASA, ExpressJet, Republic, etc and you will find many who have no intention or hope of moving on and are willing to fight for everything they can get. And since they pay more in dues than a regional newhire trying to build time, their voices will be heard.
Carl
09-22-2010, 06:35 AM
#364
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Check Essential
This thread is going to drift off into speculative nonsense and irrelevancy if someone doesn't step up and speak on behalf of DPA. I don't know if it will be one of the 3 named officers or someone else, but it better be soon.
If that website is all they got, it will be a darn shame.
Tim? Frank? Ira?
If that website is all they got, it will be a darn shame.
Tim? Frank? Ira?
Carl
09-22-2010, 06:37 AM
#365
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: bartender
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by newKnow
Maybe I'm missing something (besides my pair). Can you tell me how scope was given away at NWA and DAL by anyone other than the NWA and DAL pilots? Please just explain it to me without the insults. Ok?
09-22-2010, 06:39 AM
#366
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by Superdad
There is always a possibility of unintended consequences. However, if the majority of pilots feel that they are not being represented adequately by ALPA then the fear of an unintended consequence is not a good reason to keep them around.
The simple fact that so many are so quick to jump on this bandwagon, even without a clear direction given by DPA, should tell you something about the level of discontent amongst some DAL pilots. Hopefully this movement will light a fire under ALPA's ass since showing up at LEC meetings or voicing our concerns in other ways, seems to gain us nothing more than a few "tabled" resolutions.
In this day and age of instantaneous electronic information there is no reason why every DAL pilot cannot be involved in nearly every policy decision. Personally, I would vote for the guy who runs on no platform at all. I simply want my candidate to stand up and say "I will ask you your opinion on an issue and then vote according to what the majority of pilots want." I realize that may be an oversimplification, but I believe that would be something we could all live with, majority rules.
The simple fact that so many are so quick to jump on this bandwagon, even without a clear direction given by DPA, should tell you something about the level of discontent amongst some DAL pilots. Hopefully this movement will light a fire under ALPA's ass since showing up at LEC meetings or voicing our concerns in other ways, seems to gain us nothing more than a few "tabled" resolutions.
In this day and age of instantaneous electronic information there is no reason why every DAL pilot cannot be involved in nearly every policy decision. Personally, I would vote for the guy who runs on no platform at all. I simply want my candidate to stand up and say "I will ask you your opinion on an issue and then vote according to what the majority of pilots want." I realize that may be an oversimplification, but I believe that would be something we could all live with, majority rules.
The weird part about this is that, contrary to public perception on the web, I think ALPA is doing exactly what the pilots want. Before you puke on your keyboard, hear me out... Even though Wilson polling has been commissioned to do some f'd up surveys in the past (like Prater's Age 65 abomination), generally the DALPA surveys give a chance for input, and are well done. I think they give a very accurate picture of the pilot group to the union. And, for obvious reasons, the results cannot be released. How would C12 go, if for example it was revealed the Delta pilots would be happy with a 12% raise (I'm making up a number)?
I am NOT saying I think we're getting enough input on important LOA's, but I am saying that, generally speaking, the MEC probably correctly acts on issues that actually are important to the average Delta pilot. The people on these boards are not the average: they're more militant, more informed, and sometimes just plain nuts. The difference between what gets done by the MEC and what the forumites want accomplished probably is more attributable to the difference between the forumites and the average pilot, than the difference between the MEC and the forumites.
This is why there is such a discrepancy bewteen what say we want on the web, and the huge "Yes" votes we get on most T/A's. The fact is, this quaint little internet community is not representative of the pilot group at large. The silent majority remains silent in these parts, but they vote. And their expectations are probably more modest than we would like to see.
So I think the idea that the MEC acts without keeping the pilots in mind, or without accurately representing them is a actually a myth.
That does NOT mean I think they're giving us enough MEMRAT input. But I do think that we could have more MEMRAT, and the forumites would still walk away disgusted at every turn. They'd be disgusted at other pilots rather than the MEC, but the results would be the same.
So, if I'm correct that the MEC correctly represents the pilots, then where is the problem? What are they doing wrong?
In my mind, the flaw is not in the way the get input from the pilots (even if that input disappoints the radicals among us), but in the way they communicate back to us. I think there is a real disconnect between the product they offer (at DALPA, not National), and the marketing of that product. We continuously get the results of LOA's with what feels like a minimal explanation, and no opportunity for input. I think that, if they articulated their position more clearly and effectively, and gave us more input via MEMRAT, it would not change any LOA, but it would certainly make the pilots feel far more connected.
It's difficult to bear the silence of the current MEC, which is only briefly interrupted by brief communications about what has already happened, with barely enough tidbits of information, like little tiny bread crumbs falling on our eager foreheads, as we stare in vain at the heavens above.
I don't know why they continuously screw this up, but it's going to have real consequences. An effective and fairly unified MEC is probably going to get populated by competing factions with agendas that don't serve the group as well. Good incumbents are going to get wiped out by some really inferior products, and this pilot group is going to wake up one day realizing we were so hungry for someone, anyone, that would actually speak to us like he understands, and someone, anyone, that would actually look at all of us directly in the eyes, that we picked the wrong leader.
What's the German name for "leader", again?
09-22-2010, 06:40 AM
#367
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Correct, and to add a point. Stating that CAPA will represent mainline carriers is like stating that a seat segment is below you which is kind of against the entire theory. It is also against unity and a basic tenant of trade unionism.
Just saying
Just saying
Carl
09-22-2010, 06:44 AM
#368
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
Agreed, and the best way to hold that line is a unified ALPA. It's easy kicking the table over and walking out of the room - it's a lot harder to get a seat back at it.
Carl
09-22-2010, 06:48 AM
#369
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Seems like Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff had "experience" with ALPA. How did that International organization's ideas work out for their membership? 
I like this "slowplay" logic. It makes posting easy, fun...and you don't have to think very much! Thanks slowplay!!
Carl
I like this "slowplay" logic. It makes posting easy, fun...and you don't have to think very much! Thanks slowplay!!
Carl
Your examples from 20-30 years ago are of defunct companies that no longer have any employees. They were managed into oblivion and there were very limited options for any union to preserve jobs in those anti-union days. PAA MEC was able to secure jobs for about 25% of its membership at Delta. Eastern got Bush/Lorenzo'd. Braniff got screwed by the idiot management overexpanding post deregulation into a recession.
My examples were from your former airline during the last 5 years. That airline is actively hiring, yet none of the mechanics are here. The flight attendants got raided by another union while in bankruptcy and got 1113c'd. Their new union then ensured all of labor lost the right to strike after a contract rejection. Note the differences between your examples and mine?
Did I make it simple enough for Carl "logic?"
09-22-2010, 06:50 AM
#370
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Sink r8
A very interesting post. I think you're correct about discontent driving people, and I think it's revealing both you and "them" are so starved for input that you would vote for anyone that promises it.
The weird part about this is that, contrary to public perception on the web, I think ALPA is doing exactly what the pilots want. Before you puke on your keyboard, hear me out... Even though Wilson polling has been commissioned to do some f'd up surveys in the past (like Prater's Age 65 abomination), generally the DALPA surveys give a chance for input, and are well done. I think they give a very accurate picture of the pilot group to the union. And, for obvious reasons, the results cannot be released. How would C12 go, if for example it was revealed the Delta pilots would be happy with a 12% raise (I'm making up a number)?
I am NOT saying I think we're getting enough input on important LOA's, but I am saying that, generally speaking, the MEC probably correctly acts on issues that actually are important to the average Delta pilot. The people on these boards are not the average: they're more militant, more informed, and sometimes just plain nuts. The difference between what gets done by the MEC and what the forumites want accomplished probably is more attributable to the difference between the forumites and the average pilot, than the difference between the MEC and the forumites.
This is why there is such a discrepancy bewteen what say we want on the web, and the huge "Yes" votes we get on most T/A's. The fact is, this quaint little internet community is not representative of the pilot group at large. The silent majority remains silent in these parts, but they vote. And their expectations are probably more modest than we would like to see.
So I think the idea that the MEC acts without keeping the pilots in mind, or without accurately representing them is a actually a myth.
That does NOT mean I think they're giving us enough MEMRAT input. But I do think that we could have more MEMRAT, and the forumites would still walk away disgusted at every turn. They'd be disgusted at other pilots rather than the MEC, but the results would be the same.
So, if I'm correct that the MEC correctly represents the pilots, then where is the problem? What are they doing wrong?
In my mind, the flaw is not in the way the get input from the pilots (even if that input disappoints the radicals among us), but in the way they communicate back to us. I think there is a real disconnect between the product they offer (at DALPA, not National), and the marketing of that product. We continuously get the results of LOA's with what feels like a minimal explanation, and no opportunity for input. I think that, if they articulated their position more clearly and effectively, and gave us more input via MEMRAT, it would not change any LOA, but it would certainly make the pilots feel far more connected.
It's difficult to bear the silence of the current MEC, which is only briefly interrupted by brief communications about what has already happened, with barely enough tidbits of information, like little tiny bread crumbs falling on our eager foreheads, as we stare in vain at the heavens above.
I don't know why they continuously screw this up, but it's going to have real consequences. An effective and fairly unified MEC is probably going to get populated by competing factions with agendas that don't serve the group as well. Good incumbents are going to get wiped out by some really inferior products, and this pilot group is going to wake up one day realizing we were so hungry for someone, anyone, that would actually speak to us like he understands, and someone, anyone, that would actually look at all of us directly in the eyes, that we picked the wrong leader.
What's the German name for "leader", again?
The weird part about this is that, contrary to public perception on the web, I think ALPA is doing exactly what the pilots want. Before you puke on your keyboard, hear me out... Even though Wilson polling has been commissioned to do some f'd up surveys in the past (like Prater's Age 65 abomination), generally the DALPA surveys give a chance for input, and are well done. I think they give a very accurate picture of the pilot group to the union. And, for obvious reasons, the results cannot be released. How would C12 go, if for example it was revealed the Delta pilots would be happy with a 12% raise (I'm making up a number)?
I am NOT saying I think we're getting enough input on important LOA's, but I am saying that, generally speaking, the MEC probably correctly acts on issues that actually are important to the average Delta pilot. The people on these boards are not the average: they're more militant, more informed, and sometimes just plain nuts. The difference between what gets done by the MEC and what the forumites want accomplished probably is more attributable to the difference between the forumites and the average pilot, than the difference between the MEC and the forumites.
This is why there is such a discrepancy bewteen what say we want on the web, and the huge "Yes" votes we get on most T/A's. The fact is, this quaint little internet community is not representative of the pilot group at large. The silent majority remains silent in these parts, but they vote. And their expectations are probably more modest than we would like to see.
So I think the idea that the MEC acts without keeping the pilots in mind, or without accurately representing them is a actually a myth.
That does NOT mean I think they're giving us enough MEMRAT input. But I do think that we could have more MEMRAT, and the forumites would still walk away disgusted at every turn. They'd be disgusted at other pilots rather than the MEC, but the results would be the same.
So, if I'm correct that the MEC correctly represents the pilots, then where is the problem? What are they doing wrong?
In my mind, the flaw is not in the way the get input from the pilots (even if that input disappoints the radicals among us), but in the way they communicate back to us. I think there is a real disconnect between the product they offer (at DALPA, not National), and the marketing of that product. We continuously get the results of LOA's with what feels like a minimal explanation, and no opportunity for input. I think that, if they articulated their position more clearly and effectively, and gave us more input via MEMRAT, it would not change any LOA, but it would certainly make the pilots feel far more connected.
It's difficult to bear the silence of the current MEC, which is only briefly interrupted by brief communications about what has already happened, with barely enough tidbits of information, like little tiny bread crumbs falling on our eager foreheads, as we stare in vain at the heavens above.
I don't know why they continuously screw this up, but it's going to have real consequences. An effective and fairly unified MEC is probably going to get populated by competing factions with agendas that don't serve the group as well. Good incumbents are going to get wiped out by some really inferior products, and this pilot group is going to wake up one day realizing we were so hungry for someone, anyone, that would actually speak to us like he understands, and someone, anyone, that would actually look at all of us directly in the eyes, that we picked the wrong leader.
What's the German name for "leader", again?
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