FlyingViking

37 pages, 370 replies in 2 days... Nuff said, time for a change to the better for DAL pilots. I'm for one is 100% FOR this.

Carl Spackler

You know better ACL. It HAS been tried for decades and ALPA national beats back all challenges. This is NOT new!

Carl

Scoop

New,

I agree with your statement above (bolded). Here is my question for all the ALPA defenders who don't seem to like this turn of events:

Are you guys saying we are in ALPA and that is that? We should not even discuss or evaluate their performance? We should never evaluate alternatives?

Or, we are in ALPA and the only way we should change it is through the ALPA voting process? We can change our representatives through votes but should never even consider changing our union?

If ALPA does not evolve to satisfy the needs of the pilot group why not consider alternative options?

I agree with New - I don't give a rats ass who represents us - as long as they do it well. What I don't agree with is this vibe that some of you are putting out that we ALPA - end of story - we shouldn't even commit what some deem the heresy of discussing other options.

I guess some of you think ALPA is a one party system - no competition allowed.

I repeat - I am not necessarily for ditching ALPA, but I am totally for a thorough discussion followed by a vote.

Scoop

Carl Spackler

You're not listening ACL. It can't be fixed from within. Stop the constant drift. This site is about the Delta Pilots Association. Please stop trying to make it the "How do we fix ALPA national from within" thread. Why don't you start that thread on your own instead of hijacking this one?

Carl

iceman49

Pan Am's problem was a combination of things, management, it for years it did not have a domestic system to feed its internationl routes, deregulation hit, they had diverted money away from the core business (hotels etc) the management structure was packed with pilots run by a former general. There were a lot of issues at Pan AM, but ALPA was the least of its problems.

Carl Spackler

You see the fallacy in your own logic then. You tried to tie AMFA being broken to AMFA. The reality is that would have happened to any union. Eastern's unions were broken, and they were represented by ALPA and other large nationals.

I know you weren't trying to be logical, just shilling for ALPA national. That's all you know...I just want others to see it.

Carl

Sink r8

I understand why it might be a little bit of a mind-bender, but still, when the votes come in, we're a tame bunch.

I think there are several reasons for the discrepancy between what pilots say, and how they actually vote.:

1) I've never met a pilot that wanted to lose a *****ing contest. We're always very, very competitive in that event. You know the joke about pilots and the free house, right? There's more than a kernel of truth there.

2) Everyone has a pet issue they're very defensive about, but not everyone is very defensive on every issue. You'll have a conversation with a guy that will slit the throat of anyone that doesn't get him his retirement back, then a conversation with someone that wants to burn an RJ to the ground, then someone that wants a 50% raise, and one last guy that will strike if the words RAW Score are not stricken from the next contract. You might conclude all four pilots will burn the place to the ground over Scope, retirements, payrates, and the Reserve system, but, really, each guy will vote Yes based on the one or two issues, no matter what happens to the other 2 to four issues. The latest, most popular tack is for real senior guys to talk a lot about scope. If you're not capitalizing the letters on the forum, nowadays, you're just not cool. One 7ER candidate for Captain Rep in New York is campaigning on 1.5 pay for all pilots above 80 hours, and... SCOPE. SCOPE? Really? When is the last time you saw a group fail to trade SCOPE for retirements or payrates?

3) What you hear depends on where you sit. As I get more senior, and fly in bigger categories, the speech gets a lot... softer on many issues. As I slide back within my category, however, and people are flying domestic and redeyes, it gets a little more hardcore. For sure, if you're in the left seat, most F/O's are bound to sound more radical. So maybe I need an upgrade to get back closer to the truth.

I realize what I'm saying is anathema to what almost everyone that's on a web board wants to believe: that the silent majority is really, really militant, and held back by a compliant and weak MEC. I think the truth is that the majority is relatively compliant and worried about the company. I agree that there is universal annoyance with an MEC that seems to work in mysterious ways, but I wonder how dissapointed we might be if that MEC did what many of us clamor for, and released the results of their polling.

crewdawg52

Another card sent in today.

slowplay

You missed it again, but thanks for continuing to make the distinction between our points of view very clear, groundskeeper. Better get to work on those gophers...

AMFA got broken and it wouldn't have happened to any union....note that the successor to NWA is still here and they're not...

TheManager

Professional negotiators is SO important.

Jerry G. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate his own empolyment contract.

Richard A. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate any of his own employment contracts.

Leo M. Not a lawyer, just a banker. Still wise enough to not negotiate his own contract. ( oh, and how about that SERP those lawyers negotiated for the Mahogany Row crew at the end??)

I will illustrate with a few bullet points:

* Negotiations are all about and infused with emotions. Therefore, it is best to have people conducting them who can remain unattached from an unemotional stand point.

(Ex. Hard Knocks this season with the Jets. Look at how tied up in knots Coach Ryan and the others became with Darelle Revis' hold out.)

* If those that you are negotiating with are allowing emotion to creep into the process and decison making, than expect the emotion to be manipulated.

(Ex. The whole BK process and sell job after attaining a TA / FUD, a classic tool. Another classic-Time. Wear down and fatigue your adversary and lower their expectations over time. 2 great examples of this: 3B6 when Malone sat the 777/73N and any law suit-deposition process )

We as pilots have been told time and time again, "If you are called into a meeting with the CPO for disciplinary reasons, bring a rep."

Same difference here. We need professional reps at the table that are backed up by Dalpa negotiators/reps.