Delta Pilots Association
09-22-2010, 07:42 AM
#382
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Change and reform at ALPA national has been tried for DECADES! They've successfully resisted at every turn. My question to you is: What is your suggestion to reform national this time that hasn't already been tried at nauseum??
Carl
Carl
Ok, so we have been attempting to make change for decades with no luck. We have had numerous changes in representation both locally and nationally however what has remained constant (from within alpa) all of these years? It is my understanding that the general counsel for alpa has been the constant through all of this. If that is the case, I would submit to you that is where we start because that just might be the root of the problem.
09-22-2010, 07:47 AM
#383
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
Originally Posted by TheManager
Professional negotiators is SO important.
Jerry G. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate his own empolyment contract.
Richard A. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate any of his own employment contracts.
Leo M. Not a lawyer, just a banker. Still wise enough to not negotiate his own contract.
Jerry G. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate his own empolyment contract.
Richard A. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate any of his own employment contracts.
Leo M. Not a lawyer, just a banker. Still wise enough to not negotiate his own contract.
Originally Posted by TheManager
Same difference here. We need professional reps at the table that are backed up by Dalpa negotiators/reps.
09-22-2010, 07:54 AM
#384
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,514
Originally Posted by dalad
Is it true or an urban legend that the secretaries at ALPA HQ make more than an MD-88 F/O? It's pretty bad when the labor at ALPA National has a better contract than we do.
ALPA's file number is 000179, click "submit"
Click "2009 Report" under Fiscal Year
And there you will find ALPA National's LM-2 filing.
09-22-2010, 08:03 AM
#385
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Newsflash! Fixing SCOPE is popular among members...just not with ALPA national. Simply because ALPA national sees its future growth and dues tied to the regionals.
Carl
Carl
A good example of this is the SWA/Frontier proposed buy out. SWA management(labor friendly) allowed its own pilots to make the terms of the merger. This is very important because if the Frontier pilots didn't sign on, the deal was off. If management had just merged and let the pilots fight it out it probably would have looked a lot like AW/US.
From all that I have observed it looks like Moak is doing this. However, he can't say that in a public because the legal teams would have a field day with that one. If you haven't noticed DAL is hiring and its regionals are shedding pilots like crazy. With DPA you run the risk of souring the deal to put these planes back where they belong.
The problem with ALPA national is what you say it is, the lawyers make all their money off fighting these battles. There is definitely a need for a house cleaning at national, but a new union is not the way.
This is just my opinion. I could be wrong, take it FWIW.
09-22-2010, 08:16 AM
#386
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by 1234
I would say that is exactly what we have now.
Hardly. We have pilots who are put through some training backed up by ALPA lawyers. Those same lawyers that have produced those spectacular results and advice in the past
09-22-2010, 08:36 AM
#387
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
Originally Posted by TheManager
Hardly. We have pilots who are put through some training backed up by ALPA lawyers. Those same lawyers that have produced those spectacular results and advice in the past
What kind of annual review is done with our alpa staff and what is the definition of "successful performance"? These are questions that should be answered by National and distributed to to masses.
09-22-2010, 08:37 AM
#388
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by slowplay
You missed it again, but thanks for continuing to make the distinction between our points of view very clear, groundskeeper. Better get to work on those gophers...
AMFA got broken and it wouldn't have happened to any union....note that the successor to NWA is still here and they're not...
AMFA got broken and it wouldn't have happened to any union....note that the successor to NWA is still here and they're not...
I'm very pleased to have a distinction made between a pure ALPA shill and a humble greenskeeper.
Carl
09-22-2010, 08:39 AM
#389
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by TheManager
Professional negotiators is SO important.
Jerry G. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate his own empolyment contract.
Richard A. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate any of his own employment contracts.
Leo M. Not a lawyer, just a banker. Still wise enough to not negotiate his own contract. ( oh, and how about that SERP those lawyers negotiated for the Mahogany Row crew at the end??)
I will illustrate with a few bullet points:
* Negotiations are all about and infused with emotions. Therefore, it is best to have people conducting them who can remain unattached from an unemotional stand point.
(Ex. Hard Knocks this season with the Jets. Look at how tied up in knots Coach Ryan and the others became with Darelle Revis' hold out.)
* If those that you are negotiating with are allowing emotion to creep into the process and decison making, than expect the emotion to be manipulated.
(Ex. The whole BK process and sell job after attaining a TA / FUD, a classic tool. Another classic-Time. Wear down and fatigue your adversary and lower their expectations over time. 2 great examples of this: 3B6 when Malone sat the 777/73N and any law suit-deposition process )
We as pilots have been told time and time again, "If you are called into a meeting with the CPO for disciplinary reasons, bring a rep."
Same difference here. We need professional reps at the table that are backed up by Dalpa negotiators/reps.
Jerry G. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate his own empolyment contract.
Richard A. Lawyer by trade. Did not negotiate any of his own employment contracts.
Leo M. Not a lawyer, just a banker. Still wise enough to not negotiate his own contract. ( oh, and how about that SERP those lawyers negotiated for the Mahogany Row crew at the end??)
I will illustrate with a few bullet points:
* Negotiations are all about and infused with emotions. Therefore, it is best to have people conducting them who can remain unattached from an unemotional stand point.
(Ex. Hard Knocks this season with the Jets. Look at how tied up in knots Coach Ryan and the others became with Darelle Revis' hold out.)
* If those that you are negotiating with are allowing emotion to creep into the process and decison making, than expect the emotion to be manipulated.
(Ex. The whole BK process and sell job after attaining a TA / FUD, a classic tool. Another classic-Time. Wear down and fatigue your adversary and lower their expectations over time. 2 great examples of this: 3B6 when Malone sat the 777/73N and any law suit-deposition process )
We as pilots have been told time and time again, "If you are called into a meeting with the CPO for disciplinary reasons, bring a rep."
Same difference here. We need professional reps at the table that are backed up by Dalpa negotiators/reps.
This!!!
Carl
09-22-2010, 08:41 AM
#390
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by 1234
Ok, so we have been attempting to make change for decades with no luck. We have had numerous changes in representation both locally and nationally however what has remained constant (from within alpa) all of these years? It is my understanding that the general counsel for alpa has been the constant through all of this. If that is the case, I would submit to you that is where we start because that just might be the root of the problem.
In the meantime, DPA is counting cards. It appears we have a multi-faceted effort.
Carl
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