Delta Pilots Association
05-02-2011, 09:06 AM
#5331
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
But they are not held to Delta standards. They have not been through the evaluation process of a Delta interview (some of them don't even qualify for a Delta interview), and most of them do not have the level of experience of a real Delta pilot. They have not been trained by Delta. Their procedures are not Delta standard. They are not Delta pilots. That is the "reality" and it is an indisputable fact.
Another reality is that most RJ passengers THINK they are being flown by real Delta pilots. The airplanes have been intentionally painted to mislead the casual observer into believing it's a Delta airplane. The gates and all the material say "Delta." Every effort has been made to deceive the customer into believing they are flying on Delta with the hope that they won't notice the fine print on their ticket. It is the very definition of bait and switch.
I wonder how many of the passengers on the Colgan flight in Buffalo thought they were flying on Continental? What about Comair in Lexington? How many times was that reported as a "Delta" flight at first?
Like I've said before, the vast majority of regional pilots are good pilots and will be competitive for jobs as a Delta pilot. But not all are currently qualified, and not all meet Delta's standards for pilot hiring. They need to be vetted via the interview process... just like all the other outstanding pilots we have currently working for us who came from the regionals.
Another reality is that most RJ passengers THINK they are being flown by real Delta pilots. The airplanes have been intentionally painted to mislead the casual observer into believing it's a Delta airplane. The gates and all the material say "Delta." Every effort has been made to deceive the customer into believing they are flying on Delta with the hope that they won't notice the fine print on their ticket. It is the very definition of bait and switch.
I wonder how many of the passengers on the Colgan flight in Buffalo thought they were flying on Continental? What about Comair in Lexington? How many times was that reported as a "Delta" flight at first?
Like I've said before, the vast majority of regional pilots are good pilots and will be competitive for jobs as a Delta pilot. But not all are currently qualified, and not all meet Delta's standards for pilot hiring. They need to be vetted via the interview process... just like all the other outstanding pilots we have currently working for us who came from the regionals.
05-02-2011, 09:07 AM
#5332
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Don't we have enough problems without pilots fighting against other pilots. I think management knows that they will have to figure out Plan B in regards to this type of flying. Plan A (outsourcing) will end sooner or later and it will never be expanded. Therefore, as pilots, we should all try to work together to achieve what we all want: a single seniority list with all pilots flying under the same contract. We should encourage consolidation within the DCI carriers (already well under way) and we should encourage merging them into the mainline as soon as we can.
Rather than urinating on each other, we should find ways to mutually solve the problems and achieve our common objectives.
Rather than urinating on each other, we should find ways to mutually solve the problems and achieve our common objectives.
I agree 100%. Unity at the National level. Of course a prenup that protects people like Joe from guys like me who left that job for this one. If I want to fly an RJ, I bid below him, but keep a system seniority number that is higher than his. It protects his expectations, and mine. It includes ALPA DCI carriers only.
As for the "Delta" standard; Yep, there are some at DCI that should/could not make it here at DAL but the same can be said here. NWA had pilots DAL did not want and DAL had/has pilots NWA did not what. Simple fact, as with the flow though agreements, DAL can had will terminate a pilot if they are not meeting a standard. DAL could and would do the same thing if this sort of thing was agreed too.
Recapturing flying is very important, but one must realize that there is strength gained by not ostracizing these pilots. Leverage and unity are gained by allowing them to become part of the Delta system when we are successful in our goals. It give value to the industry, profession and out union. The fact that this logic fails most people is quite telling about where we are today as a profession.
05-02-2011, 09:10 AM
#5333
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Ive been biting my lip so far... thank you for saying what needs to be said.
05-02-2011, 09:41 AM
#5334
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I agree 100%. Unity at the National level. Of course a prenup that protects people like Joe from guys like me who left that job for this one. If I want to fly an RJ, I bid below him, but keep a system seniority number that is higher than his. It protects his expectations, and mine. It includes ALPA DCI carriers only.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Recapturing flying is very important, but one must realize that there is strength gained by not ostracizing these pilots.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Leverage and unity are gained by allowing them to become part of the Delta system when we are successful in our goals. It give value to the industry, profession and out union. The fact that this logic fails most people is quite telling about where we are today as a profession.
Carl
05-02-2011, 09:51 AM
#5335
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
This is just one of the many key points you are glossing over. There is NO SUCH THING AS A PRE-NUP in this scenario...none! Anything you think you've agreed to can be completely undone in a follow-up lawsuit on the basis of unconscionability. If you really want to merge our seniority list with another pilot group when there has been no corporate merger, you better be OK with arbitration. And with arbitration comes the possibility of Date of Hire, Ratios, etc.
Nobody is suggesting we ostracize these pilots. I and others are only stating that they need to go through the exact same hiring process as the rest of us. No special treatment. No carve-out for hiring on with a certain regional. Why you and Joe Merchant, etal continue to describe my statements as "ostracizing" and "throwing under the bus" and "apartheid" is very puzzling. I think you know you don't have a case, so you're left with throwing around epithets.
Another concept that is trotted out as fact. EXACTLY, how would we gain this leverage? How would merging these pilots on to our seniority list without there being a corporate merger stop new bottom feeders from starting up?
Carl
Carl
2) Sunset allowable jets as they go away.
3) By helping pilots within your union and trade, it shows a true value of ALPA and unity in general. It shows that we as pilots in general have each others' backs. It puts words in to action, and that action kills the notion that we see pilots engaged in our trade as less than us. It sure would be an ego buster to all of us that see ourselves as better, but it is good for the profession. This unity would translate in section six rounds, and multiply as we went from contract to contract.
05-02-2011, 10:13 AM
#5336
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,570
Joe,
I have to call BS on your history. There was plenty of hiring in the past 15 years(1995-2010). Approximate numbers: NWA 2800+, UAL 5000+, DAL 4000+, AA 2500+, SWA 3000+, FDX 2000+ etc. Anyone who put forth the effort got a chance. Our job at half is still better (with much better upside) than yours at a subcontractor. Just addmit it. You bought your job at ASA(when there were plenty of commuters that you did not have to) listened to the bitter lifers that hated mainline, then became one of those yourself.
I have to call BS on your history. There was plenty of hiring in the past 15 years(1995-2010). Approximate numbers: NWA 2800+, UAL 5000+, DAL 4000+, AA 2500+, SWA 3000+, FDX 2000+ etc. Anyone who put forth the effort got a chance. Our job at half is still better (with much better upside) than yours at a subcontractor. Just addmit it. You bought your job at ASA(when there were plenty of commuters that you did not have to) listened to the bitter lifers that hated mainline, then became one of those yourself.
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
Because scope was sold, and because you and some of your colleagues were too good to fly "little airplanes", there haven't been many "mainline" jobs in the past 15 years. In addition, those jobs are worth about half what they were 15 years ago.
As a result of that scope being sold, my carrier has to COMPETE with every TOM, DICK, and HARRY to fly this outsourced flying...Cost is a major factor in winning these RFPs....CMR raised the bar more than anyone in the past decade...How were they "rewarded"? Sorry, I don't want that "reward"...
I have heard the term "growing a pair"...Have you heard the phrase "cutting your nose of to spite your face"?
As a result of that scope being sold, my carrier has to COMPETE with every TOM, DICK, and HARRY to fly this outsourced flying...Cost is a major factor in winning these RFPs....CMR raised the bar more than anyone in the past decade...How were they "rewarded"? Sorry, I don't want that "reward"...
I have heard the term "growing a pair"...Have you heard the phrase "cutting your nose of to spite your face"?
05-02-2011, 10:20 AM
#5337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
So you're encouraging a merged seniority list without a corporate merger?
Good luck with that desire.
Carl
Good luck with that desire.
Carl
05-02-2011, 10:26 AM
#5338
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Absolutely not, that is impossible. We have already facilitated one merger (DAL/NWA), the Delta MEC is assisting in any way possible with the current DCI mergers, and, in my opinion, we should find a way to facilitate a corporate merger with the DCI carriers. Since there is no chance that the limits on larger RJ flying will be modified in our next contract (my opinion, I have no say other than 1 vote), then management will have to come up with plan B. Helping them execute Plan B will accelerate our ultimate goal of reducing outsourcing, and could provide further cost savings for the company which we should take a cut from, just like our last merger.
05-02-2011, 10:34 AM
#5339
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I agree 100%. Unity at the National level. Of course a prenup that protects people like Joe from guys like me who left that job for this one. If I want to fly an RJ, I bid below him, but keep a system seniority number that is higher than his. It protects his expectations, and mine. It includes ALPA DCI carriers only.
As for the "Delta" standard; Yep, there are some at DCI that should/could not make it here at DAL but the same can be said here. NWA had pilots DAL did not want and DAL had/has pilots NWA did not what. Simple fact, as with the flow though agreements, DAL can had will terminate a pilot if they are not meeting a standard. DAL could and would do the same thing if this sort of thing was agreed too.
Recapturing flying is very important, but one must realize that there is strength gained by not ostracizing these pilots. Leverage and unity are gained by allowing them to become part of the Delta system when we are successful in our goals. It give value to the industry, profession and out union. The fact that this logic fails most people is quite telling about where we are today as a profession.
As for the "Delta" standard; Yep, there are some at DCI that should/could not make it here at DAL but the same can be said here. NWA had pilots DAL did not want and DAL had/has pilots NWA did not what. Simple fact, as with the flow though agreements, DAL can had will terminate a pilot if they are not meeting a standard. DAL could and would do the same thing if this sort of thing was agreed too.
Recapturing flying is very important, but one must realize that there is strength gained by not ostracizing these pilots. Leverage and unity are gained by allowing them to become part of the Delta system when we are successful in our goals. It give value to the industry, profession and out union. The fact that this logic fails most people is quite telling about where we are today as a profession.
I came up through the military, flew as an instructor and fighters, and I saw all kinds of pilots good and less good. What you fly and where you came from are not indicative of your flying skills. Some of the best pilots I ever saw were ex WWII pilots that flew Super Cubs at the AF Academy. Rather than get caught up in stereotypes, we should examine the course that increases the power of our pilot group to negotiate better contracts. I want more money and therefore I want to find the path that gets me more money. In my opinion, we will have a difficult time raising up the mainline unless the smaller jet pilots rise up along with us. It seems easier to do if we have one pilot group and one voice.
05-02-2011, 10:37 AM
#5340
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
But category-status, and pay check are also very important and have and will continue to be used in and SLI.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
We can do that if we as a group mandate it, but, where is the quid for them then? Being on probation solves many of the issues you describe.
Carl
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