Bar and I have the same ultimate goal in mind, I have never quarreled with that. My only beef is that he feels that scope was changed as some sort of conspiracy by senior pilots to screw the junior pilots. I see it as an industry came unraveled for a decade after 9/11, we were scrambling to try to hold onto whatever we could. Scope was just one other section that got creamed in the aftermath along with pay, pension (which affected senior pilots more), and well everything else.

ALPA worked to try to facilitate consolidation as we saw that as the ticket to a more stable industry that could support a much higher level of pay, pension, and well everything else than we currently enjoy. I believe that outsourcing is bad for the pilots and bad for the company. Unlike some, I realize that getting out of this mess will be very difficult. ALPA should try to facilitate that transition rather than be sand in the gears.

 

This would accomplish nothing close to what you surmise. It would have far reaching and mostly unintended consequences. I'm reminded of Ronald Reagan's amnesty for illegal Mexican immigrants back in the 1980's. When the law was signed, Reagan was clear that it would never happen again. He said: "We'll make citizens of the ones that are here now, but never again. This is a one-time only deal in order to end illegal immigration once and for all." What was the result: A massive new flood of illegals into the US immediately afterwards. The illegals did so in the hope of gaining amnesty again in the future when memories faded. (Now just watch the guys who will ignore the analogy, and scream that I've just compared DCI pilots to illegal Mexican immigrants). 3, 2, 1...

This is exactly what would happen here. If we merged the DCI guys onto our list without a corporate merger, it would create a massive incentive to fly for the newest sleaze-ball Mesa-type operator in the hopes of getting what the DCI guys got. These new sleaze-ball airlines would have a huge item that they desperately need...pilots willing to work for nothing. This is so wrong-headed it's hard to imagine.

If you're advocating a corporate merger with the connection carriers, that's fine. Good luck getting Delta's board to approve that. But even considering merging those pilots onto our seniority list in the abscence of such a merger, is shockingly destructive.

Carl

 

duplicated drivel

 

Is that what is most important to you? ALPA has little value to me other than a focus for goods and services. Now DALPA on the other hand..... and if you are still holding on to the delusion that UAL will walk out for our benefit.. or that we will for theirs, you are just unreachable...

 

Thanks, 80.

 

Agreed and that is why I see Carl's statement that they have not been borne of the same fire, as ridiculous. DAL will weed out who they want, they always have.

As for the leverage. The reality is that because of the level of outsourcing that we have seen, the economics of that seat class have changed. First, we must restore the flying to the list, which will change the way the economics are determined, and though that change, allow leverage to change the compensation for that seat class as the economics improve. It is not a once contract goal. This will take a few contracts and many years. This pilot group need to be willing to do that flying at current compensation levels, which will allow it to get back on the list, and then when there or no more portfolio competition and other carrier follow suit, the economics change, allowing for the compensation to be brought up to "mainline" levels.

A difficult task, but one that we must undertake. I also agree that we need to help with DCI mergers, and as a result change the economics that leave Plan B (insourcing) the only option.

 

Carl;
For some that will be great, but for some that is a loss of longevity and bidding rights. That is all a few want. If you can give that to the senior few, and a number to the rest, you could do it outside of an Arbitration. If they get greedy, well then, it becomes what it becomes.

We can always go the traditional way, and make them hire in to their old jobs, but that does nothing for the value of a trade union. That is fine if we must, but there should be the goal of helping fellow pilots out.

Before we go down this road of how we will have an SLI, lets just worry about getting the flying we are allowing to be flown off our list, back on our list. DAL will need pilots by the groves by then, and much more so if we are successful. By pure fact that most of these pilots have applications on file here, a SLI would use this fact, just like LUV will do against AAI. It is easy to prove value when needed. In regard to F9 and RJET, that was a different animal, and being the acquiring carrier. This would not be a traditional SLI. We own the flying today, and will always. That is why, I suspect the only way we could ever do a deal with DCI pilots would be though agreement. If not, you way wins, and all of those pilots will reset longevity and blame ALPA for it.

 

Carl;
To make this simple. We own the fly, we would not be buying their flying, they have no rights to it, their PWA's do not protect DAL coded flying, it is not a merger or acquisition. It is an olive branch to fellow ALPA pilots as their companies lose contracts on Delta flying. Ergo, a pilot group would be very willing for an agreement (prenup) with us. If not we would owe them nothing, and many of the pilots I know at DCI know that.

 

So just what are you advocating here ACL? A merger of our seniority list with a DCI list?????

 

That is precisely what he's advocating. It takes a while to smoke him out with all his political double-speak, but that's what he's after. He can't describe it that way though. He has to use terms like "unity" and "olive branches to fellow pilots" and "helping out our brother ALPA members", etc.

Carl