Delta Pilots Association
04-30-2011, 04:52 PM
#5241
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: MD88 A
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Nice quote. But if we have all this power and resolve, how come the APA has nothing to show for it after 5 years? You certainly can't argue they don't have the resolve. Why has that produced nothing, if in fact they have the power you proclaim?
04-30-2011, 04:56 PM
#5242
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Tab Flyer
Because they've been acting alone. When we all step up together and either change the RLA or defy it, when we have leaders that will challenge it and the membership that will support them; then the APA and we will get restoration.
Carl, DAL88, TheManager, etc. etc. all want to act MORE alone, not together.
04-30-2011, 05:24 PM
#5243
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: MD88 A
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Now that right there is FUNNY! Look at the title of this thread, and tell me just how you expect to accomplish that!
Carl, DAL88, TheManager, etc. etc. all want to act MORE alone, not together.
Carl, DAL88, TheManager, etc. etc. all want to act MORE alone, not together.
04-30-2011, 05:31 PM
#5244
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Tab Flyer
I simply answered your question buddy. Of course it would take different thinking than yours.
And we also have a small contingent of DAL pilots who very much want to go it alone; hence the title to this thread "Delta Pilots Association". Fortunately, they are but a small minority.
04-30-2011, 06:49 PM
#5245
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,839
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Of course, APA apparently doesn't think so; since they broke off from ALPA.
Get over it, she doesn't love you.
Nu
04-30-2011, 06:50 PM
#5246
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Why don't you ask a DPA base rep to confirm? Oh, I forgot, they don't have any....
According to DPA's own published numbers, your rumor is FALSE. You can look it up on their own website.
According to DPA's own published numbers, your rumor is FALSE. You can look it up on their own website.
04-30-2011, 06:57 PM
#5247
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Now that right there is FUNNY! Look at the title of this thread, and tell me just how you expect to accomplish that!
Carl, DAL88, TheManager, etc. etc. all want to act MORE alone, not together.
Carl, DAL88, TheManager, etc. etc. all want to act MORE alone, not together.
An in-house union composed of only Delta pilots that was using all of its dues money for only Delta pilots will be so much more in tune with its pilots. And would not have to fight the battles for funding and expertise that we have to fight now when we want to fight something that our national affiliate does not.
Carl
04-30-2011, 07:02 PM
#5248
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Originally Posted by satchip
It proves my assertion that is is a palace coup attempt by some former powerful people who no longer are. They are more interested in re creating their fiefdoms than helping Delta pilots.
04-30-2011, 07:18 PM
#5249
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
Great analogy - it was just such a palace coup that put Moak and the current fiefdom of MEC leadership in power. All This Has Happened Before, All This Will Happen Again
05-01-2011, 04:29 AM
#5250
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by Whidbey
Satchip,
What do you define as progress? If it's accepting modest gains after living with pay cuts for so long, I don't call that progress. Not for the AA pilots and not for the profession. I'm sure APA was operating under the assumption that the NMB was going to act in it's proper role, which is has not.
The APA is negotiating on the tilted playing field the NMB has set for them. I'm sure many in APA and at AA feel that accepting only modest gains would constitute a tacit acceptance of a permanent reset of the value of an airline pilot. I'm sure they rightly pointed out that the "jug" of pilot pay wasn't emptied drop by drop, it was dumped out. My hat is off to them for taking a stand, at least for as long as they have.
A few assumptions seem to underlie your statements on this issue.
The first is that the inability to reach an agreement is a failure solely on the part of APA. I assure you, AA management didn't come to the table with what they considered a "fair and reasonable" contract. It is their job as servants of the stockholder to get a contract signed for as little money paid to the pilots as possible. They're playing out their advantage given to them by the NMB, hoping that the resolve of the pilots will erode over time, that the pilots will eventually come to (what seems to be your) attitude that "something is better than nothing."
Remember, Thucydides said "the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must." At the end of the day these negotiations aren't about reason. They're about power and resolve. We seem to lack the latter because none of us realize that ultimately, we possess the former.
If too many Delta pilots aren't willing to at least project the attitude that we're worth at least what we were ten years ago, we're in serious trouble.
Very respectfully,
Whidbey
What do you define as progress? If it's accepting modest gains after living with pay cuts for so long, I don't call that progress. Not for the AA pilots and not for the profession. I'm sure APA was operating under the assumption that the NMB was going to act in it's proper role, which is has not.
The APA is negotiating on the tilted playing field the NMB has set for them. I'm sure many in APA and at AA feel that accepting only modest gains would constitute a tacit acceptance of a permanent reset of the value of an airline pilot. I'm sure they rightly pointed out that the "jug" of pilot pay wasn't emptied drop by drop, it was dumped out. My hat is off to them for taking a stand, at least for as long as they have.
A few assumptions seem to underlie your statements on this issue.
The first is that the inability to reach an agreement is a failure solely on the part of APA. I assure you, AA management didn't come to the table with what they considered a "fair and reasonable" contract. It is their job as servants of the stockholder to get a contract signed for as little money paid to the pilots as possible. They're playing out their advantage given to them by the NMB, hoping that the resolve of the pilots will erode over time, that the pilots will eventually come to (what seems to be your) attitude that "something is better than nothing."
Remember, Thucydides said "the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must." At the end of the day these negotiations aren't about reason. They're about power and resolve. We seem to lack the latter because none of us realize that ultimately, we possess the former.
If too many Delta pilots aren't willing to at least project the attitude that we're worth at least what we were ten years ago, we're in serious trouble.
Very respectfully,
Whidbey
Your right, the playing field is tilted. It's called the RLA and it is tilted on purpose. The NMB is doing exactly what they were created to do. The advantage was created by Congress, not the NMB. The proof is is who is running the show.
During the election many on this board touted a "labor friendly" government. Well we have the most labor friendly leftist government in the history of the US and has the NMB changed one whit? No, the only change is to make it more easy to force a union on a company. That is about the money generated. You haven't seen any movement in negotiations.
The economic realities are that no major airline labor group will be allowed to strike, ever again. That is until you change the RLA. That will take huge amounts of political clout. Something fragmented self interested groups like the DPA will not be able to wield.
Has there been a permanent shift in the value of an airline pilot? I don't know. The fact that there are airplanes flying around safely with guys with less experience and making what we consider a pittance might suggest it has. I can assure you in some manager's eyes it has.
How do we fight that trend? Unity. Right now we have almost zero power. Only through unity can we gain the political clout to affect the debate in the halls of government where all these decisions are made.
I think this is ALPA's plan. If they can capture a critical mass of pilot labor, they will have more power to get things done in Washington. We will never get there though, if we continue to devalue our junior member's jobs by selling them for pay and benefits. Here is where I disagree with ALPA. By divesting the Compass pilots we sold them out.
I don't think the scope issue is an ALPA problem per se. I think it is an attitude held by a certain generation of major airline pilots. You see it in statements here. "They are not qualified, they couldn't get hired here". "We are not paid what we have been historically worth, what we got in decades past." Is it arrogance? Lack of vision? I don't know, but it will be our undoing.
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