Delta Pilots Association
05-01-2011 | 01:17 PM
#5271
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
So I guess if there is something that management thinks is important... well far be it for us to try and change their minds.
So, I guess we should just all forget about any kind of significant pay increases or restoration of our profession and our careers. I mean, I'm sure management thinks they cannot afford this, right? So what are we wasting our money paying ALPA for? If management is just going to do what management is going to do... well, we might as well not even have a union. 
05-01-2011 | 01:19 PM
#5272
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,100
Likes: 86
Just to be clear, the previous administration had just negotiated the biggest give back in Delta's history, around a billion a year.
The MEC Chairman works for the MEC. Some members of the MEC were unhappy with the job the MEC Chairman was doing. There was a vote per the ALPA Constitution. A new chairman was elected. You weren't there and you have no idea about why the MEC was unhappy with the MEC Chairman. Yet that doesn't stop you from maligning people merely on hearsay. Someone told me that NuGuy hates puppies and runs over kittens with his car, see how easy that is?
This brings me back to the concept that some people don't respect their fellow pilots and don't respect democracy. The MEC holds an election and one person wins and one person loses. TANSTAAFL might call that a "coup" or use some other word, but I call it "democracy". No one on the MEC that voted either way was recalled or seriously questioned about their motives by their own pilots, it was a small group that invented a story to fit their own view of the world. They don't like real democracy so there had to be some nefarious dealings, how else could their wishes not be followed. Really, the arrogance of that view is astonishing.
Lee Moak was elected by the MEC in a fair vote. Some people were unhappy with the outcome, but that is democracy. He was reelected unanimously by the same people two years later. Maybe they were happy with his work. He ran unopposed for the position when the MEC's were merged. You could have run, yet you try to pass off his election as some farce.
The MEC Chairman works for the MEC. Some members of the MEC were unhappy with the job the MEC Chairman was doing. There was a vote per the ALPA Constitution. A new chairman was elected. You weren't there and you have no idea about why the MEC was unhappy with the MEC Chairman. Yet that doesn't stop you from maligning people merely on hearsay. Someone told me that NuGuy hates puppies and runs over kittens with his car, see how easy that is?
This brings me back to the concept that some people don't respect their fellow pilots and don't respect democracy. The MEC holds an election and one person wins and one person loses. TANSTAAFL might call that a "coup" or use some other word, but I call it "democracy". No one on the MEC that voted either way was recalled or seriously questioned about their motives by their own pilots, it was a small group that invented a story to fit their own view of the world. They don't like real democracy so there had to be some nefarious dealings, how else could their wishes not be followed. Really, the arrogance of that view is astonishing.
Lee Moak was elected by the MEC in a fair vote. Some people were unhappy with the outcome, but that is democracy. He was reelected unanimously by the same people two years later. Maybe they were happy with his work. He ran unopposed for the position when the MEC's were merged. You could have run, yet you try to pass off his election as some farce.
Will you respect democracy at this point? Will you consider that a fair vote?
Nu
05-01-2011 | 01:33 PM
#5273
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
From: Recovering Airline Pilot
Ah, great argument.
You: "I demand $1,000 per hour!"
Smart Pilot: "The company can't afford that, obviously."
You: "Management wannabe!"
It's like arguing with a child. Someone pointing out that negotiations are more complex than just demanding something that you want does not make them prime candidates for management. The fact that you think that it does just hurts your own credibility.
If that's your strategy, then we're finally getting somewhere. I was simply trying to find out how you meant to achieve your goals. So, apparently your strategy is to convince management that they are better off without outsourcing. In other words, you want to convince management of throwing out one of their most sacred victories in the past few decades. I don't think that's a realistic strategy, but at least it's a strategy instead of just complaining, I guess.
Significant pay increases are a very realistic and attainable goal. Management doesn't think that they can't afford them, so that's a false argument. Management will fight as hard as they can to pay you as little as possible, but they know that they can afford significant increases. Completely getting rid of outsourcing is a much different story, though. I don't see any possibility that you'll convince them that just dropping regional code sharing is in their best interests. You'll need to be a little bit more creative than that.
You: "I demand $1,000 per hour!"
Smart Pilot: "The company can't afford that, obviously."
You: "Management wannabe!"
It's like arguing with a child. Someone pointing out that negotiations are more complex than just demanding something that you want does not make them prime candidates for management. The fact that you think that it does just hurts your own credibility.
So I guess if there is something that management thinks is important... well far be it for us to try and change their minds.
So, I guess we should just all forget about any kind of significant pay increases or restoration of our profession and our careers. I mean, I'm sure management thinks they cannot afford this, right?
05-01-2011 | 01:40 PM
#5274
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
Now, do you agree that Lee Moak was elected in a fair and democratic vote, 3 different times, according to the ALPA Constitution and the Delta Policy Manual?
05-01-2011 | 02:42 PM
#5275
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Likes: 0
05-01-2011 | 03:43 PM
#5276
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
We're close to agreeing. The main difference I see is that I think all Delta pilots should meet the qualifications (realistic qualifications, not just the minimum) and go through the vetting/interview process before being hired. Then they have to perform to Delta standards in training before they get to fly Delta passengers.
As far as mainline gauge aircraft... I totally agree that the vast majority of these DCI aircraft should be mainline aircraft flown by mainline pilots. I am one of the few that was saying this way back in the late 1990's when all these RJ's first started showing up. It has been a huge mistake to allow all this outsourcing... not only for the number of mainline pilot jobs, but also for the quality of our domestic product.
As far as mainline gauge aircraft... I totally agree that the vast majority of these DCI aircraft should be mainline aircraft flown by mainline pilots. I am one of the few that was saying this way back in the late 1990's when all these RJ's first started showing up. It has been a huge mistake to allow all this outsourcing... not only for the number of mainline pilot jobs, but also for the quality of our domestic product.
You grossly misread what I am saying if you think I am pro-outsourcing.
You can "think" everyone should do everything you said before flying DAL pax, but we live in the real world...they, the DCI pilots, have to meet their hiring / training standards.
We have absolutely got to figure how to align our interests with DCI pilots before we can recapture the flying otherwise we all lose. This is one reason I think the de-representation of Compass was such a anti-unity move by Lord Moak (I just threw that in to **** off PG).
The apologists continually say "whats your plan" I want to know what their plan is if it doesn't include unity (aka alignment of interests).
05-01-2011 | 04:03 PM
#5277
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
From: CRJ200 Capt.
They're already flying Delta passengers in airplanes with widgets on the tails. The average passenger doesn't even realize that he's not on a Delta mainline flight. The same is true for regional carriers flying feed for every mainline carrier.
Think of it this way: if a regional pilot is not fit to be flying your passengers, yet the regional carrier hasn't weeded him out over all of these years that he's been a "lifer," don't you think that the way to weed him out and get him to stop flying Delta passengers is to get the Delta training department a chance at getting rid of him?
Mainline pilots need to lose the mentality that regional guys should be shunned. The only way you'll ever end the outsourcing is to bring the regional guys in, not push them away.
Think of it this way: if a regional pilot is not fit to be flying your passengers, yet the regional carrier hasn't weeded him out over all of these years that he's been a "lifer," don't you think that the way to weed him out and get him to stop flying Delta passengers is to get the Delta training department a chance at getting rid of him?
Mainline pilots need to lose the mentality that regional guys should be shunned. The only way you'll ever end the outsourcing is to bring the regional guys in, not push them away.
It's too bad this wasn't resolved back in 2000 when ASA and CMR filed the PID as it would have been easier back then. The "stars were more in alignment" back then as far as leverage, but is looks as though the stars are now aligning from the standpoint of "mainline opinion"...
1. DCI regional pilots already fly Delta passengers...Have for many years and will continue to. If it is a "danger", then it is whether they sit in a DCI cockpit or a Delta cockpit.
2. It is in EVERYONE's best interest to negotiate as ONE with a SINGLE group. That being said, I do believe that ship has sailed and we most likely won't see that ever happen now.
3. I am one of those regional "lifers"...I didn't plan on that, but because scope was sold, I decided to go for QOL at the top of the regional list rather than the bottom of the mainline list.....We can either work TOGETHER as ONE, or we can work against each other as separate groups defending our own turf...I am OK either way, we just need to establish the rules.
4. Very interesting to see how the view of a "single list" has changed in the past decade...
05-01-2011 | 04:09 PM
#5278
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
I want higher standards (actually, just the standards that we had for decades) for this profession, not lower ones. I think that higher standards and higher quality equates to higher compensation in a free marketplace. What we've been experiencing for the past decade is not the free market at work. It's irresponsible management at work. And, ultimately, the market will correct that. People are not going to want to fly with this guy as their Captain:
Captain Tommy
The sooner ALPA stops condoning this crap, the sooner it is likely to start being corrected.
05-01-2011 | 04:17 PM
#5279
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
From: CRJ200 Capt.
I find it interesting that a military only pilot, Scambo1, "gets it", while a civilian former regional pilot, DAL 88 Driver, continues to practice the ALPA apartheid that considers the "regional pilots" to be second class citizens....Sad.....
05-01-2011 | 04:26 PM
#5280
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
From: Furlough/Gun Driver
WOW!...I agree 100% with PCL128...and that is significant if you know the history between us.
It's too bad this wasn't resolved back in 2000 when ASA and CMR filed the PID as it would have been easier back then. The "stars were more in alignment" back then as far as leverage, but is looks as though the stars are now aligning from the standpoint of "mainline opinion"...
1. DCI regional pilots already fly Delta passengers...Have for many years and will continue to. If it is a "danger", then it is whether they sit in a DCI cockpit or a Delta cockpit.
2. It is in EVERYONE's best interest to negotiate as ONE with a SINGLE group. That being said, I do believe that ship has sailed and we most likely won't see that ever happen now.
3. I am one of those regional "lifers"...I didn't plan on that, but because scope was sold, I decided to go for QOL at the top of the regional list rather than the bottom of the mainline list.....We can either work TOGETHER as ONE, or we can work against each other as separate groups defending our own turf...I am OK either way, we just need to establish the rules.
4. Very interesting to see how the view of a "single list" has changed in the past decade...
It's too bad this wasn't resolved back in 2000 when ASA and CMR filed the PID as it would have been easier back then. The "stars were more in alignment" back then as far as leverage, but is looks as though the stars are now aligning from the standpoint of "mainline opinion"...
1. DCI regional pilots already fly Delta passengers...Have for many years and will continue to. If it is a "danger", then it is whether they sit in a DCI cockpit or a Delta cockpit.
2. It is in EVERYONE's best interest to negotiate as ONE with a SINGLE group. That being said, I do believe that ship has sailed and we most likely won't see that ever happen now.
3. I am one of those regional "lifers"...I didn't plan on that, but because scope was sold, I decided to go for QOL at the top of the regional list rather than the bottom of the mainline list.....We can either work TOGETHER as ONE, or we can work against each other as separate groups defending our own turf...I am OK either way, we just need to establish the rules.
4. Very interesting to see how the view of a "single list" has changed in the past decade...
There is no such thing as a regional lifer. Just ask Comair, AWAC, and ACA (Independence) lifers how it worked out for them.
Your TURF belongs to mainline management.
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