Originally Posted by Sink r8

I don't know where you came from, but a) you're a great writer, and b) you're saving me a lot of effort trying to put down cogent arguments. I'm pretty much free to think about the issues and read.

I think the guys running the show now, meaning the MEC (LM will be gone in a few weeks) are up to the task. I don't think their approach lacks intelligence, effectiveness, or good intentions. But they often can't seem to bridge the gap between a geek-like focused approach to problem-solving (which is fine), and the way trade unionists need to connect to their membership in terms that are clear, simple, and persuasive. You don't have to behave like a raging lunatic when stating, simply and clearly, that our flying isn't available to others.

Originally Posted by gloopy

The FAE system may indeed have been a major driver of scope sales, and of course that methodology for retirement is long gone. Its exciting that the UAL/CAL guys are ratteling their sabers over Scope and its actual reversal. Although just in the "opener" the fact that its there and a top emphasis item is encouraging. The fact that they have 1500 or so of their brethern on furlough is huge as well. Ditto for AA, although they don't have the urgency of a merger to contend with (yet) management on an industry wide basis will IMHO have a hard time even putting scope relief on the table at any other legacy. Delta will be the front lines because the debate will be framed in a similar manner it was back during the C2K days.

Everything's fine, we want top pay, etc. Well here you go...just sign here and you will be top pay! Wait what's all this scope relief? Oh that, well you see, it will result in more mainline not less so you can't afford not to outcource! You know, that whole arguement.

As for LM not being tough enough right now, I don't think we need a Dubinsky approach one bit. I don't expect him or anyone in his position to, especially at this point, talk about burning it all down if necessary to get 1970's pay adjusted for inflation, triple dipping vacation scams, check airman buddy bidding green slip years and other fantasy featherbedding. I don't expect him to say we will strike the shareholders if we don't get 50% raises, blah blah blah. But I do expect all in upper ALPA/DALPA leadership to publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that scope sales are over and in fact, scope reversal to some significant degree WILL occur.

The entire aviation industry is wondering about the future of the 77-120 seat market at Delta Air Lines and every other legacy. Union leaders pretending that this issue is somehow too taboo or controversial to talk about is downright unacceptable. Talk about partnering with our company. Friendly labor relations. How LM and RA txt every 5 minutes and are BFF's, whatever. But for pay I expect them all to say, 100% of the time, that when needed to save the company the pilots stepped up in the biggest way and gave back not only enough to save the company, but way too much. The emergency Ch 11 so we can avoid Ch 7 PWA that has seen only partial COLA since then simply will be going up to recapture some of what was loaned to the company to survive the darkest days. And way too much flying was outsourced and not only is that trend over, it will be reversed to some degree and those two items (especially the last one) are non negotiable in terms of will they happen or not. They will. And everyone from ALPA natl to DALPA to LM shouldn't shy away from saying so. It is not controversial one bit. It will not tank the share price. It will not trash the credit rating. There is no good reason not to at least be able to say that much. Not saying so makes it seem like someone intends on gutting scope again for a cookie.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Interesting how this article (at least the part you posted... I haven't gone to the link to read the full article) leaves the impression that the SLI is at least part of the impetus for pursuing new representation. Kinda sounds like they're trying to draw a comparison to the situation at US Airways. The problem with that is that I haven't heard or seen a single reference to the SLI as a reason to leave ALPA and go to DPA. I don't think this is about the SLI at all. From what I've seen, I think it is about a conflict of interest, a desire to have all our dues money and all our efforts in support of Delta pilots, and a desire to pursue restoration of our profession (and not be afraid to say it).

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

DAL 88 Driver is correct.

The SLI has absolutely NOTHING to do with the emergence of DPA. Having DALPA suggest this is a lame attempt at trying to redirect blame. The true reason is that DALPA hasn't done its job & the membership is unsatisfied.

What the Buzzard fails to tell you is that:

--the membership hears literally NOTHING from the MEC. After the Republic deal, we only got a bullet point outline about possible SCOPE issues. Explanations of possible impacts of the Mesaba & Compass sales were vague & lame, & said little.

--Almost nothing is said WRT MEC special / regular meetings, what was discussed, voted on, or any outcomes.

--Numerous questions WRT LOA between the MEC & Mgmt. Again, nothing is really told to the line pilot. We rarely see an LEC communication.

--The impression that the MEC is too cozy with Mgmt.

--The fact that DAL pilots pay about $23,000,000.00 in annual ALPA dues, & only recoup $9,000,000.00 of it. That's a heck of return on our investment. The other dues serve competing airlines' interests & keep the ALPA NATL gravy train funded.

--Question about conflicts of interest with ALPA representing different pilot groups that are after the same jobs.

--The impression that ALPA NATL has lost touch with the line pilots they represent. Huge salaries, perks & bennies that have blossomed out of control. The DAL pilots dues are being used to finance this.

--NATL ALPA office workers that earn more than line pilots.

--A huge ALPA BOD meeting at a luxury hotel with open bars & excessive expenses. Again, NATL wasting the hard earned dues of its members. And what about any updates from the meeting? NOTHING has been communicated. (Why isn't a regular layover hotel sufficient? Probably because we don't stay in five star hotels.)

--Any requests for DALPA expense reports or FPL figures are DENIED.

--A comm guy that insults our intelligence by stating "bigger is better', "ALPA gives the line pilot value", & that we should just shut our pie holes & get with the program. Don't rock the ALPA boat.

Pilots became interested in the DPA because they realized that ALPA could really give a rat's a$$ about their interests. It's a top down organization that closely holds onto its power with little regard to the membership. It wants to keep the status quo intact & has no desire to change. Pilots are sick of SSDD.

Originally Posted by Elmer Fudd

DAL 88 Driver is correct.

The SLI has absolutely NOTHING to do with the emergence of DPA. Having DALPA suggest this is a lame attempt at trying to redirect blame. The true reason is that DALPA hasn't done its job & the membership is unsatisfied.

What the Buzzard fails to tell you is that:

--the membership hears literally NOTHING from the MEC. After the Republic deal, we only got a bullet point outline about possible SCOPE issues. Explanations of possible impacts of the Mesaba & Compass sales were vague & lame, & said little.

--Almost nothing is said WRT MEC special / regular meetings, what was discussed, voted on, or any outcomes.

--Numerous questions WRT LOA between the MEC & Mgmt. Again, nothing is really told to the line pilot. We rarely see an LEC communication.

--The impression that the MEC is too cozy with Mgmt.

--The fact that DAL pilots pay about $23,000,000.00 in annual ALPA dues, & only recoup $9,000,000.00 of it. That's a heck of return on our investment. The other dues serve competing airlines' interests & keep the ALPA NATL gravy train funded.

--Question about conflicts of interest with ALPA representing different pilot groups that are after the same jobs.

--The impression that ALPA NATL has lost touch with the line pilots they represent. Huge salaries, perks & bennies that have blossomed out of control. The DAL pilots dues are being used to finance this.

--NATL ALPA office workers that earn more than line pilots.

--A huge ALPA BOD meeting at a luxury hotel with open bars & excessive expenses. Again, NATL wasting the hard earned dues of its members. And what about any updates from the meeting? NOTHING has been communicated. (Why isn't a regular layover hotel sufficient? Probably because we don't stay in five star hotels.)

--Any requests for DALPA expense reports or FPL figures are DENIED.

--A comm guy that insults our intelligence by stating "bigger is better', "ALPA gives the line pilot value", & that we should just shut our pie holes & get with the program. Don't rock the ALPA boat.

Pilots became interested in the DPA because they realized that ALPA could really give a rat's a$$ about their interests. It's a top down organization that closely holds onto its power with little regard to the membership. It wants to keep the status quo intact & has no desire to change. Pilots are sick of SSDD.

Originally Posted by gloopy

But no one in the entire industry will benefit long term by giving every single work group the ability to choke the golden goose until it gives them every last egg. Especially low skilled jobs with near zero cost of entry.

Originally Posted by iceman49

It seems to work in the other companies, gloop...we just punch the time card like everyone else. It does require more to get where we are, but the compensation is greater, if you don't have the boys loading the bags or if they get on the wrong aircraft, guess what our great flying skills don't mean much to that paying pax. The union provides certain protections, don't you think the other groups deserve the same?