acl65pilot

Scambo;
I agree. I would love to have DALPA tell guys how much all of those services would cost per year. It would have to be equal. Like a ten lawyers at min billing every min of every day to DPA. How about all of the AME help? How about the PAC stuff, safety etc. It ain't cheap to pay for our level of coverage that we have now.

gloopy

Sure they do. However applying that logic, every work group in every profession in the country should unionize. Not sure anyone can make the case for that though. I respect what the other work groups do and I want them to earn fair pay, working conditions and job security. I just don't agree that everyone gaining the power to shut the whole thing down unless their demands are met will be good for anyone in the long run, especially when politics of national unions and political parties comes into play.

Delta has done a pretty good job regarding the other work groups compared to most. That is why they are so far not unionized. I think the number of unionized groups will increase due to inheriting and when that happens the sun will still rise. I just don't think every work group should unionize. However in the end of the day it will be their choice.

Carl Spackler

Man I get tired of repeating myself...

I don't care what they do! But IF they CHOOSE to stay and fly those jets, don't come whining about not being able to hire on with a major! Don't whine about how those major guys sold scope and are now FORCING you to stay with a regional. Don't go whining about their DECISION to stay at the regional COSTING them 6 years of longevity at a major.

Again...do what you want. Just understand that when you work for a company that is taking flying from the majors, the majors' hiring plans just might slow down.

Do you copy?...Over!

Carl

80ktsClamp

Carl, you're not convincing anybody on this. Best to just move on and quit barking up that tree.

DAL 88 Driver

Well of course, there are going to be a few folks in any group that have some different priorities and ideas. I guess you could consider any thought that any individual might have to be "part of it", but that's really not what I'm talking about. The quote from the Delta pilot in the AJC article made it sound like the dissatisfaction with ALPA and the movement for DPA mainly had to do with integration issues from the merger. I don't believe that is an accurate assessment... based on the discussion that has taken place here and elsewhere, along with all the material on the DPA web site.

What have you seen to indicate that DPA is in response to merger integration in the same way (or even similar) as to what happened at US Airways? Cause I haven't seen a thing that would lead me to believe this is the case.

Carl Spackler

No chance. I know these forums are populated primarily by current and former RJ guys, so I know it's not popular when I state the facts. Facts can be painful...especially to RJ guys that refuse to acknowledge any role at all other than their victim status.

Carl

scambo1

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Although not directed at me, I'll take a whirl: What I have seen at former NWA base(s) is the majic marker graffiti that says something to the effect of

"ALPA the only union not recognizing DOH"

While this may not be directly related to DPA, "perception is reality" and "there's a little truth in everything."

Again, this DPA thing is not the same as USAPA, but there is likely some root in SLI dissatisfaction IMO.

80ktsClamp

Saying that guys should just quit when scope was relaxed is not a fact. It's an opinion.

Sink r8

Aren't you confusing having a union, and the choice of having a union?

We've had different aspects of this discussion over time, especially WRT the F/A's. I'v argued they seem to enjoy better conditions with the threat of the union, than with an actual union. They get the payoff for not joining, and they get the "me-too" items we negotiate. In return, we have decent leverage when we go through our own negotiations, because we are essentially the one stumbling block to labor peace. Seems to have worked very well for decades.

When it came to this DPA stuff, I've argued a divided union is like no union at all. I think we agree we don't know what will happen in the vote, or what direction the F/A's will eventually take. I think it's easy to see that it will take time for either side to gain consensus, in any event, and this time will mean any restoration will be delayed.

There are no purely pragmatic reasons we would want another group to unionize, but that doesn't mean we should/could/would stand in their way, in any shape or form. I don't think any of us advocate interference. But I'm certainly done supporting organizing efforts on the F/A side. I was supportive twice before, and the South F/A's have voted otherwise. Upon further reflection, I've decided there is no gain in it, and no point in it. And, incidentally, since many of them don't seem to get it, and many have voted against representation, we're only respecting their wishes. You always seem to assume the "right" outcome for them is a foregone conclusion. They (the South F/A's) haven't been voting your way. What the post-merger group as a whole does, noone knows. But when you advocate for a certain outcome, aren't you in effect trying to deny them the right to choose self-representation?

acl65pilot

I would agree with Carl if their own MEC was the one that forced the mainline to give up the flying. The reality is that these regional MEC's are not fighting mainline DALPA or DAL management for more flying. The regional management is fighting among each other for that flying and the pilots of those regionals may decide to "help" their management obtain flying, but they are not going to DAL management and taking your flying.

Mainline PWA's allow flying to be outsourced, no place else. DALPA has exclusivity to bargain with DAL management and no one else.

Carl, you want to argue that pilots should just not work in aviation for these wages, and that is a great idea, but the laws of economics and human nature are working against you. The world changed in the regional world after the USAir, UAL, NWA, and DAL scope sales in the early part of last decade. Prior to that the regionals were generally a three year spring board to a mainline job. Stagnation has occurred because to many jets and jobs were outsourced for many reasons, some legit and some not. Bring back the flying and restart the natural progression that has been absent and this issue as all of us sees it goes away. We are at a great point in history to do just that. Laws, and economics are on our side.