Delta Pilots Association
10-19-2010, 03:50 PM
#1461
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by sailingfun
If I were a junior guy sticking that kind of expense on the company would scare the hell out of me.
Carl
10-19-2010, 04:02 PM
#1462
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Gloopy,
This pilot group views scope in a completely different way than it ever has before. You've got very senior Captains on here railing about how important it is! Everyone I fly with and everyone I run into talks about scope as being extremely important. You would have never seen that before the last couple of years. So, no, I don't think this pilot group will relax scope or give up on scope restoration no matter how big the pay increase is. I know I certainly won't.
But on the other hand, I won't vote for a contract that doesn't at least make significant progress towards pay restoration over the life of the contract. Your suggested increases do not come anywhere close to my minimum threshold. If ALPA is thinking like you on this (which I suspect they are), then I will vote for DPA in a heartbeat.
This pilot group views scope in a completely different way than it ever has before. You've got very senior Captains on here railing about how important it is! Everyone I fly with and everyone I run into talks about scope as being extremely important. You would have never seen that before the last couple of years. So, no, I don't think this pilot group will relax scope or give up on scope restoration no matter how big the pay increase is. I know I certainly won't.
But on the other hand, I won't vote for a contract that doesn't at least make significant progress towards pay restoration over the life of the contract. Your suggested increases do not come anywhere close to my minimum threshold. If ALPA is thinking like you on this (which I suspect they are), then I will vote for DPA in a heartbeat.
Carl
10-19-2010, 04:04 PM
#1463
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl;
It would not follow the by-laws. They specifically state that a significant change to the PWA like a scope concession would have to go to MEMRAT. I do not see any Rep having that on their shoulders alone. They would want the rank and file to vote on it and probably vote it down.
It would not follow the by-laws. They specifically state that a significant change to the PWA like a scope concession would have to go to MEMRAT. I do not see any Rep having that on their shoulders alone. They would want the rank and file to vote on it and probably vote it down.
10-19-2010, 04:07 PM
#1464
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
You know, it's kinda like when I was a DC-9 instructor at my previous airline. If I had a student that was struggling, the difference between someone who was giving it their best effort (obviously trying their best to achieve the objective of proficiency) and someone who didn't seem to really care (apparently not giving it their best effort)... well that would make a world of difference in how much extra training that individual would get and to what degree we would work with that individual to get him or her through.
ALPA has not in my opinion been giving restoration their best effort. Heck, they won't even acknowledge it as an objective or talk about it at all! I can tell when someone is trying to achieve something or not because a normal person or organization has identified it as their objective and is constantly talking about it and focused on it. I don't see any of evidence of ALPA working towards restoration. Nada, zilch, zip. On the other hand, if DPA comes in and is obviously working towards this objective... doing everything they can to achieve it...well I can go a lot further with that, just like the struggling student. I don't expect anyone to be perfect or achieve perfect results. But I do expect them to have appropriate objectives and give it their best effort.
ALPA has not in my opinion been giving restoration their best effort. Heck, they won't even acknowledge it as an objective or talk about it at all! I can tell when someone is trying to achieve something or not because a normal person or organization has identified it as their objective and is constantly talking about it and focused on it. I don't see any of evidence of ALPA working towards restoration. Nada, zilch, zip. On the other hand, if DPA comes in and is obviously working towards this objective... doing everything they can to achieve it...well I can go a lot further with that, just like the struggling student. I don't expect anyone to be perfect or achieve perfect results. But I do expect them to have appropriate objectives and give it their best effort.
Fair enough DAL88. I can see your point with that statement. I would venture to bet that the new MEC will probably look and feel a lot different than the current one. Even a single person leaving can have a significant change on the way the others operate, so lets give our input to our reps on why we want in there.
Elections are next month.
10-19-2010, 04:09 PM
#1465
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Carl;
It would not follow the by-laws. They specifically state that a significant change to the PWA like a scope concession would have to go to MEMRAT. I do not see any Rep having that on their shoulders alone. They would want the rank and file to vote on it and probably vote it down.
It would not follow the by-laws. They specifically state that a significant change to the PWA like a scope concession would have to go to MEMRAT. I do not see any Rep having that on their shoulders alone. They would want the rank and file to vote on it and probably vote it down.
Carl
10-19-2010, 04:30 PM
#1467
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Here is what the Policy Manual states with regard to MEMRAT as defined in the ALPA By-Laws.:
B. Ratification of Agreements
1. MEC Ratification Policy:
a. Collective bargaining agreements that have been approved by the MEC
and result from negotiations undertaken pursuant to both Section 28 of the
PWA and Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act that both resolve all Section
6 issues and conclude Section 6 negotiations shall be subject to
membership ratification. All other agreements shall be subject only to
MEC ratification unless the MEC determines that an agreement should be
subject to membership ratification.
B. Ratification of Agreements
1. MEC Ratification Policy:
a. Collective bargaining agreements that have been approved by the MEC
and result from negotiations undertaken pursuant to both Section 28 of the
PWA and Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act that both resolve all Section
6 issues and conclude Section 6 negotiations shall be subject to
membership ratification. All other agreements shall be subject only to
MEC ratification unless the MEC determines that an agreement should be
subject to membership ratification.
10-19-2010, 04:34 PM
#1469
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Here's my concern. What if our union just does another LOA without MEMRAT to give away more scope? Once the LOA is signed, it's done. Then what do you do? Recall everyone?
Carl
Carl
10-19-2010, 04:41 PM
#1470
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Here is what the ALPA By-Laws State, and based upon this wording, a change in scope would be grounds for MEMRAT:
SECTION 2 - RATIFICATION
A. Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC,
substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member pilots will
be subject to membership ratification under the following terms and conditions:
(1) The MEC will, at its option, ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their
desire to have membership ratification. Once membership ratification is established it will remain
in effect until changed by another ballot of the membership through MEC action.
Of course the answer is in the MEC policy manual and I do not know if I can download that document.
SECTION 2 - RATIFICATION
A. Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC,
substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member pilots will
be subject to membership ratification under the following terms and conditions:
(1) The MEC will, at its option, ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their
desire to have membership ratification. Once membership ratification is established it will remain
in effect until changed by another ballot of the membership through MEC action.
Of course the answer is in the MEC policy manual and I do not know if I can download that document.
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