Delta Pilots Association
10-11-2010, 03:43 PM
#1001
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by tsquare
On what are you basing this number?
And... as I have highlighted, it would be OURS. What's so wrong with that? We have been paying into this thing for how many years now.. for what again?
And... as I have highlighted, it would be OURS. What's so wrong with that? We have been paying into this thing for how many years now.. for what again?
It would be our own MCF. It would also have to be really big to cover a 12K+ pilot work group. I would assume that there is about 20-30 million or so in National's MCF that we could use right away. (Have not looked at it recently so that is a ballpark and I will admit it) Also, there has been no money added to the MCF in many moons. The money we pay goes to supporting the work done on our behalf (Lawyers, safety, Lobbying, Aeromed etc) If you are not part of a bigger organization you will have to pay more. We are not always in section six, but we are always using the legal team. Every flipping day, for one reason or another. Using the figures I have from a corporation that requires that level of legal support, our fees would be well in to the seven figure per year range, and that is without section six.
I us IPA's figure of 2.25% of a pilot group that is about half our size and generally out earns us two to one.
I also agree with you that whomever win on Wed, will need to hit the ground with their feet afire. A lot of work needs to be done to correct the course of National, but I do beleive it can and will be done. It is at the very minimum self preservation, but more likely the fact that new blood will be flowing in.
Carl;
I will give you that there are regional airline pilot groups out there that have started over less than stellar reasons. I also agree that places like Republic who is IBT, have no issue going after your flying. I disagree that places like EV, CPS, XJ et al who are part of ALPA want to take your flying. They want you to take it back so they can have a meaningful progression of their career. There are always going to be a few basis point in a pilot group that will stay on a jet or a seat or that airline for many reasons, and yes, they want you flying, but they are not the doers. They are the ones that talk a lot but will never get involved.
I know many of the guys over at my former MEC and they want to see us succeed with our scope. Now why would they do that?
As for 50% of the problem? I get where you are aiming but disagree on the math. Pilot like myself that accepted traditional regional jobs are one thing, but those that accept them thinking they are now a destination are another. (Few and far between, see RJET again and non-alpa) Furthermore it is really hard for a guy who does not come from the military to break in to the majors without 121 command time. Your and my airline set that min for a few reasons, but one is so that they have a flow of pilots. If WE stop selling scope and god forbid take it back the problem you say is half the RJ drivers fault will disappear.
The entire problem is that first it was sold, then airlines like DAL coined the portfolio of carriers performing said flying which created self induced competition amongst the competing airline managers who tried to ask for concession from their pilot to "win" the flying. This almost always failed. Places like Mesa, Go Jet (Alter Ego to Trans States who now own CPS) and RJET are where your angst should be aimed. Go Jet and Mesa pilots have been fighting with their management since inception for industry wages and have been increasingly successful with the help of ALPA. That my friend helps your cause by raising the bar for these airlines. Go read an RJET thread and see how those guys are talking about taking less to grow. That is your issue.
ALPA and the Delta Connection Pilots Collation which is part of ALPA are working on way to bring the bar up, by working together to raise wages and to not under cut each other. That is a benefit for you and I. It keeps their wages going up. They are not part of the problem, they are trying to find a solution to the next new entrant, or management group that is willing to sell themselves for a few years of contracted flying.
You should fear places like SKW that do not have ALPA and are non-uion as much as RJET. They are at their managements whim. To this point I agree with the statement you make, but not when it includes all of the Regional ALPA carriers that have been fighting for better wages etc since their inception.
I want the jets here like you, and wish the problem was never created. I just disagree with the broad brush you are painting with.
10-11-2010, 03:50 PM
#1002
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It would be our own MCF. It would also have to be really big to cover a 12K+ pilot work group. I would assume that there is about 20-30 million or so in National's MCF that we could use right away. (Have not looked at it recently so that is a ballpark and I will admit it) Also, there has been no money added to the MCF in many moons. The money we pay goes to supporting the work done on our behalf (Lawyers, safety, Lobbying, Aeromed etc) If you are not part of a bigger organization you will have to pay more. We are not always in section six, but we are always using the legal team. Every flipping day, for one reason or another. Using the figures I have from a corporation that requires that level of legal support, our fees would be well in to the seven figure per year range, and that is without section six.
I us IPA's figure of 2.25% of a pilot group that is about half our size and generally out earns us two to one.
I also agree with you that whomever win on Wed, will need to hit the ground with their feet afire. A lot of work needs to be done to correct the course of National, but I do beleive it can and will be done. It is at the very minimum self preservation, but more likely the fact that new blood will be flowing in.
Carl;
I will give you that there are regional airline pilot groups out there that have started over less than stellar reasons. I also agree that places like Republic who is IBT, have no issue going after your flying. I disagree that places like EV, CPS, XJ et al who are part of ALPA want to take your flying. They want you to take it back so they can have a meaningful progression of their career. There are always going to be a few basis point in a pilot group that will stay on a jet or a seat or that airline for many reasons, and yes, they want you flying, but they are not the doers. They are the ones that talk a lot but will never get involved.
I know many of the guys over at my former MEC and they want to see us succeed with our scope. Now why would they do that?
As for 50% of the problem? I get where you are aiming but disagree on the math. Pilot like myself that accepted traditional regional jobs are one thing, but those that accept them thinking they are now a destination are another. (Few and far between, see RJET again and non-alpa) Furthermore it is really hard for a guy who does not come from the military to break in to the majors without 121 command time. Your and my airline set that min for a few reasons, but one is so that they have a flow of pilots. If WE stop selling scope and god forbid take it back the problem you say is half the RJ drivers fault will disappear.
The entire problem is that first it was sold, then airlines like DAL coined the portfolio of carriers performing said flying which created self induced competition amongst the competing airline managers who tried to ask for concession from their pilot to "win" the flying. This almost always failed. Places like Mesa, Go Jet (Alter Ego to Trans States who now own CPS) and RJET are where your angst should be aimed. Go Jet and Mesa pilots have been fighting with their management since inception for industry wages and have been increasingly successful with the help of ALPA. That my friend helps your cause by raising the bar for these airlines. Go read an RJET thread and see how those guys are talking about taking less to grow. That is your issue.
ALPA and the Delta Connection Pilots Collation which is part of ALPA are working on way to bring the bar up, by working together to raise wages and to not under cut each other. That is a benefit for you and I. It keeps their wages going up. They are not part of the problem, they are trying to find a solution to the next new entrant, or management group that is willing to sell themselves for a few years of contracted flying.
You should fear places like SKW that do not have ALPA and are non-uion as much as RJET. They are at their managements whim. To this point I agree with the statement you make, but not when it includes all of the Regional ALPA carriers that have been fighting for better wages etc since their inception.
I want the jets here like you, and wish the problem was never created. I just disagree with the broad brush you are painting with.
I us IPA's figure of 2.25% of a pilot group that is about half our size and generally out earns us two to one.
I also agree with you that whomever win on Wed, will need to hit the ground with their feet afire. A lot of work needs to be done to correct the course of National, but I do beleive it can and will be done. It is at the very minimum self preservation, but more likely the fact that new blood will be flowing in.
Carl;
I will give you that there are regional airline pilot groups out there that have started over less than stellar reasons. I also agree that places like Republic who is IBT, have no issue going after your flying. I disagree that places like EV, CPS, XJ et al who are part of ALPA want to take your flying. They want you to take it back so they can have a meaningful progression of their career. There are always going to be a few basis point in a pilot group that will stay on a jet or a seat or that airline for many reasons, and yes, they want you flying, but they are not the doers. They are the ones that talk a lot but will never get involved.
I know many of the guys over at my former MEC and they want to see us succeed with our scope. Now why would they do that?
As for 50% of the problem? I get where you are aiming but disagree on the math. Pilot like myself that accepted traditional regional jobs are one thing, but those that accept them thinking they are now a destination are another. (Few and far between, see RJET again and non-alpa) Furthermore it is really hard for a guy who does not come from the military to break in to the majors without 121 command time. Your and my airline set that min for a few reasons, but one is so that they have a flow of pilots. If WE stop selling scope and god forbid take it back the problem you say is half the RJ drivers fault will disappear.
The entire problem is that first it was sold, then airlines like DAL coined the portfolio of carriers performing said flying which created self induced competition amongst the competing airline managers who tried to ask for concession from their pilot to "win" the flying. This almost always failed. Places like Mesa, Go Jet (Alter Ego to Trans States who now own CPS) and RJET are where your angst should be aimed. Go Jet and Mesa pilots have been fighting with their management since inception for industry wages and have been increasingly successful with the help of ALPA. That my friend helps your cause by raising the bar for these airlines. Go read an RJET thread and see how those guys are talking about taking less to grow. That is your issue.
ALPA and the Delta Connection Pilots Collation which is part of ALPA are working on way to bring the bar up, by working together to raise wages and to not under cut each other. That is a benefit for you and I. It keeps their wages going up. They are not part of the problem, they are trying to find a solution to the next new entrant, or management group that is willing to sell themselves for a few years of contracted flying.
You should fear places like SKW that do not have ALPA and are non-uion as much as RJET. They are at their managements whim. To this point I agree with the statement you make, but not when it includes all of the Regional ALPA carriers that have been fighting for better wages etc since their inception.
I want the jets here like you, and wish the problem was never created. I just disagree with the broad brush you are painting with.
10-11-2010, 04:01 PM
#1004
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It would be our own MCF. It would also have to be really big to cover a 12K+ pilot work group. I would assume that there is about 20-30 million or so in National's MCF that we could use right away. (Have not looked at it recently so that is a ballpark and I will admit it) Also, there has been no money added to the MCF in many moons. The money we pay goes to supporting the work done on our behalf (Lawyers, safety, Lobbying, Aeromed etc) If you are not part of a bigger organization you will have to pay more. We are not always in section six, but we are always using the legal team. Every flipping day, for one reason or another. Using the figures I have from a corporation that requires that level of legal support, our fees would be well in to the seven figure per year range, and that is without section six.
I us IPA's figure of 2.25% of a pilot group that is about half our size and generally out earns us two to one.
I also agree with you that whomever win on Wed, will need to hit the ground with their feet afire. A lot of work needs to be done to correct the course of National, but I do beleive it can and will be done. It is at the very minimum self preservation, but more likely the fact that new blood will be flowing in.
Carl;
I will give you that there are regional airline pilot groups out there that have started over less than stellar reasons. I also agree that places like Republic who is IBT, have no issue going after your flying. I disagree that places like EV, CPS, XJ et al who are part of ALPA want to take your flying. They want you to take it back so they can have a meaningful progression of their career. There are always going to be a few basis point in a pilot group that will stay on a jet or a seat or that airline for many reasons, and yes, they want you flying, but they are not the doers. They are the ones that talk a lot but will never get involved.
I know many of the guys over at my former MEC and they want to see us succeed with our scope. Now why would they do that?
As for 50% of the problem? I get where you are aiming but disagree on the math. Pilot like myself that accepted traditional regional jobs are one thing, but those that accept them thinking they are now a destination are another. (Few and far between, see RJET again and non-alpa) Furthermore it is really hard for a guy who does not come from the military to break in to the majors without 121 command time. Your and my airline set that min for a few reasons, but one is so that they have a flow of pilots. If WE stop selling scope and god forbid take it back the problem you say is half the RJ drivers fault will disappear.
The entire problem is that first it was sold, then airlines like DAL coined the portfolio of carriers performing said flying which created self induced competition amongst the competing airline managers who tried to ask for concession from their pilot to "win" the flying. This almost always failed. Places like Mesa, Go Jet (Alter Ego to Trans States who now own CPS) and RJET are where your angst should be aimed. Go Jet and Mesa pilots have been fighting with their management since inception for industry wages and have been increasingly successful with the help of ALPA. That my friend helps your cause by raising the bar for these airlines. Go read an RJET thread and see how those guys are talking about taking less to grow. That is your issue.
ALPA and the Delta Connection Pilots Collation which is part of ALPA are working on way to bring the bar up, by working together to raise wages and to not under cut each other. That is a benefit for you and I. It keeps their wages going up. They are not part of the problem, they are trying to find a solution to the next new entrant, or management group that is willing to sell themselves for a few years of contracted flying.
You should fear places like SKW that do not have ALPA and are non-uion as much as RJET. They are at their managements whim. To this point I agree with the statement you make, but not when it includes all of the Regional ALPA carriers that have been fighting for better wages etc since their inception.
I want the jets here like you, and wish the problem was never created. I just disagree with the broad brush you are painting with.
I us IPA's figure of 2.25% of a pilot group that is about half our size and generally out earns us two to one.
I also agree with you that whomever win on Wed, will need to hit the ground with their feet afire. A lot of work needs to be done to correct the course of National, but I do beleive it can and will be done. It is at the very minimum self preservation, but more likely the fact that new blood will be flowing in.
Carl;
I will give you that there are regional airline pilot groups out there that have started over less than stellar reasons. I also agree that places like Republic who is IBT, have no issue going after your flying. I disagree that places like EV, CPS, XJ et al who are part of ALPA want to take your flying. They want you to take it back so they can have a meaningful progression of their career. There are always going to be a few basis point in a pilot group that will stay on a jet or a seat or that airline for many reasons, and yes, they want you flying, but they are not the doers. They are the ones that talk a lot but will never get involved.
I know many of the guys over at my former MEC and they want to see us succeed with our scope. Now why would they do that?
As for 50% of the problem? I get where you are aiming but disagree on the math. Pilot like myself that accepted traditional regional jobs are one thing, but those that accept them thinking they are now a destination are another. (Few and far between, see RJET again and non-alpa) Furthermore it is really hard for a guy who does not come from the military to break in to the majors without 121 command time. Your and my airline set that min for a few reasons, but one is so that they have a flow of pilots. If WE stop selling scope and god forbid take it back the problem you say is half the RJ drivers fault will disappear.
The entire problem is that first it was sold, then airlines like DAL coined the portfolio of carriers performing said flying which created self induced competition amongst the competing airline managers who tried to ask for concession from their pilot to "win" the flying. This almost always failed. Places like Mesa, Go Jet (Alter Ego to Trans States who now own CPS) and RJET are where your angst should be aimed. Go Jet and Mesa pilots have been fighting with their management since inception for industry wages and have been increasingly successful with the help of ALPA. That my friend helps your cause by raising the bar for these airlines. Go read an RJET thread and see how those guys are talking about taking less to grow. That is your issue.
ALPA and the Delta Connection Pilots Collation which is part of ALPA are working on way to bring the bar up, by working together to raise wages and to not under cut each other. That is a benefit for you and I. It keeps their wages going up. They are not part of the problem, they are trying to find a solution to the next new entrant, or management group that is willing to sell themselves for a few years of contracted flying.
You should fear places like SKW that do not have ALPA and are non-uion as much as RJET. They are at their managements whim. To this point I agree with the statement you make, but not when it includes all of the Regional ALPA carriers that have been fighting for better wages etc since their inception.
I want the jets here like you, and wish the problem was never created. I just disagree with the broad brush you are painting with.
Carl
10-11-2010, 04:07 PM
#1005
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by tsquare
I am willing to pay a little more as long as I know that my president is not getting a union paid for million dollar mortgage and a free car. Believe it or not. This is where I am drawing this line. He gets the same as a 777/747 captain at 80 hours.. and no more.. thanks for your service.. commute like the rest of us and live in a crash pad. That way he will FULLY be in touch with his membership.... or my card goes in. Simple.
I don't believe I've ever been more disgusted with this union. I guess if they get 50% of the pilots to believe something like this, they'll believe anything. Including RJ's are good for the airline.
Carl
10-11-2010, 04:28 PM
#1006
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by Sink r8
Aren't you confusing having a union, and the choice of having a union?
We've had different aspects of this discussion over time, especially WRT the F/A's. I'v argued they seem to enjoy better conditions with the threat of the union, than with an actual union. They get the payoff for not joining, and they get the "me-too" items we negotiate. In return, we have decent leverage when we go through our own negotiations, because we are essentially the one stumbling block to labor peace. Seems to have worked very well for decades.
When it came to this DPA stuff, I've argued a divided union is like no union at all. I think we agree we don't know what will happen in the vote, or what direction the F/A's will eventually take. I think it's easy to see that it will take time for either side to gain consensus, in any event, and this time will mean any restoration will be delayed.
There are no purely pragmatic reasons we would want another group to unionize, but that doesn't mean we should/could/would stand in their way, in any shape or form. I don't think any of us advocate interference. But I'm certainly done supporting organizing efforts on the F/A side. I was supportive twice before, and the South F/A's have voted otherwise. Upon further reflection, I've decided there is no gain in it, and no point in it. And, incidentally, since many of them don't seem to get it, and many have voted against representation, we're only respecting their wishes. You always seem to assume the "right" outcome for them is a foregone conclusion. They (the South F/A's) haven't been voting your way. What the post-merger group as a whole does, noone knows. But when you advocate for a certain outcome, aren't you in effect trying to deny them the right to choose self-representation?
We've had different aspects of this discussion over time, especially WRT the F/A's. I'v argued they seem to enjoy better conditions with the threat of the union, than with an actual union. They get the payoff for not joining, and they get the "me-too" items we negotiate. In return, we have decent leverage when we go through our own negotiations, because we are essentially the one stumbling block to labor peace. Seems to have worked very well for decades.
When it came to this DPA stuff, I've argued a divided union is like no union at all. I think we agree we don't know what will happen in the vote, or what direction the F/A's will eventually take. I think it's easy to see that it will take time for either side to gain consensus, in any event, and this time will mean any restoration will be delayed.
There are no purely pragmatic reasons we would want another group to unionize, but that doesn't mean we should/could/would stand in their way, in any shape or form. I don't think any of us advocate interference. But I'm certainly done supporting organizing efforts on the F/A side. I was supportive twice before, and the South F/A's have voted otherwise. Upon further reflection, I've decided there is no gain in it, and no point in it. And, incidentally, since many of them don't seem to get it, and many have voted against representation, we're only respecting their wishes. You always seem to assume the "right" outcome for them is a foregone conclusion. They (the South F/A's) haven't been voting your way. What the post-merger group as a whole does, noone knows. But when you advocate for a certain outcome, aren't you in effect trying to deny them the right to choose self-representation?
10-11-2010, 06:19 PM
#1009
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Nobody uses a broader brush than you dude. Blaming the entire thing on the major pilots back then and nothing on you is simply denial. I don't know if it's because the truth is simply too painful for you to face, but whatever the reason...it is denial.
Carl
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