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Old 09-23-2010, 03:22 AM
  #501  
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Originally Posted by FlyingViking View Post
37 pages, 370 replies in 2 days... Nuff said, time for a change to the better for DAL pilots. I'm for one is 100% FOR this.
And 7000 + self validating views many by the same people exercising an extreme statistical self selection bypass All hail the Internet, our newest form of government..............
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:43 AM
  #502  
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TANSTAAFL;
I was thinking of that this AM over my 5 AM cup of joe. Lets look at the web based survey, and the participation numbers in it. Some e-mails went out with it but pilots were not given an access code and told to go take it. I think that there is proof of self selection bias in the way it was done, and who participated. I am sure the MEC is also savvy enough to take these and the scientific survey and compare the results. That comparison is what is really telling, imo.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:04 AM
  #503  
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When/how will the DPA officially contact pilots? A random website and word of mouth is not going to even get close as ACL said.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:17 AM
  #504  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid View Post
I'm going to say, if Praeter wins ALPA National again, those cards should be flying in.

I'm for DALPA with no ALPA National. I want LEC and MEC elections at DALPA, I want to elect the Chairman. Thats not to say I wouldn't chose LM, I'm just saying I want to chose. I want competition all of the time, political parties give you that, it'd be nice to see parties. You could have a Pro-Company and Anti-Company and Worthless Finger-in-the-Air Moderates party.

If you can't have DALPA wihtout ALPA... then DPA.

Need pull on Capitol Hill, how about when APA, UCAL-PA and DALPA come together on a topic, thats some pull. If not, then ALPA doesn't have any pull anyways.
Interesting. I was just thinking about that this morning: identifiable groups and platforms would be very helpful. Parties: I'm in.

Also, I don't see why we can't vote for the guy that heads the union. If you could combine that with virtual meetings, you could actually get a feel for the people running.

As far as reviewing the influence of National on local afairs, and modifying the bylaws a little... absolutely. I think a lot of that already has been happening.

Now, back to parties. What I want is to be able to identify is a group, its' backers, and the vision. You said "If not ALPA without DALPA, then DPA". But... what's DPA's platform? And who are the people involved? Maybe we can get independent confirmation of this, but my source says DPA is a bunch of guys in Florida, anchored by JM and other former reps. These are the same guys that were behind the recall efforts in 44 last year.

For those who weren't at Delta as we entered BK, JM was the previous Chairman. He has enjoyed respect from the group for being the negotiator on C2K, but he also presided over LOA 46. LOA 46 was the tear-down of the contract, workrules, payrates (34%), and all we held sacred. Whereas we still got raped in LOA 51, it mostly cost 18%, workrules were not greatly affected (unfortunately it sealed the fate on the DB plan after the mass exodus), and we obtained some compensation in terms of the Note and the Claim. LOA 46 was the 2-hour gang-rape by a group of prison inmates, and LOA 51 was more of the personal, one-on-one-slip-em-a-little-something-in-their-drink-and-play-a-little-soft-music kind of a thing. By then, we were a little numb anyway, and all lubed up.

Disgusted? So were we.

At any rate, my point is that we fared far worse under the threat of BK, than under an actual 1113 motion.

So I'm all for being able to identify people running for things, especially if I already have read their resume. This is another reason I have a real problem with this DPA stuff. There is no substance on the website, no identifying the backers.... AND we've already done been there and seen that. This is the previous administration, repackaged. Poorly.

Maybe one of the proxies can confirm this, the guys with a few posts that weren't in any other discussion about cheerleaders, but are all active right now. I also understand from my one source that this group is backing candidates in elections. I only heard about NYC, my base: PM and the other guy, the senior ER CA whose name I forget right now (JD?). So it would appear they're playing both sides of the fence. So, by now, we've seen a recall attempt, an attempt to field candidates, and an attempt to change unions.

For what?

What is the platform? The plan? The vision?

So if JM wants to articulate some kind of vision, assuming this is anything but a personal vendetta, then by all means: express yourself. Otherwise, all this is, is a power grab, from which the Delta pilots cannot possibly benefit.

I've said before about LM that I don't want people to grow tentacles: they do their job, they move on. I think it's probably time for Lee to move on, and I'm happy that he's going for Prater's job. I think it would be good for the Delta pilots, and good for ALPA in general. It would let us focus more on our own affairs, and it would test the proposition made by this current MEC that we're a bottom-up organization (something I'm skeptical about). I also will repeat it: JM did his part well also. I think he did great in C2K, and I think he did so-so on LOA46. Still, I think he probably accurately represented the wishes of the group at the time. We all feel the sting from that period, but we don't care about the sting of internal politics felt by an individual. I still stupidly believe former Chairmen should gracefully let the following groups run the show, until the subsequent group, and then the two former Chairmen can have martinis together, while waiting for the next former Chairman.

Trying to defend our contracts is a ridiculously difficult proposition as it stands. Having people playing "Montagues and Capulets" on top is a dangerous distraction, wrapped inside a recipe for disaster.

Last edited by Sink r8; 09-23-2010 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:19 AM
  #505  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
TANSTAAFL;
I was thinking of that this AM over my 5 AM cup of joe. Lets look at the web based survey, and the participation numbers in it. Some e-mails went out with it but pilots were not given an access code and told to go take it. I think that there is proof of self selection bias in the way it was done, and who participated. I am sure the MEC is also savvy enough to take these and the scientific survey and compare the results. That comparison is what is really telling, imo.
TANSTAAFL/ACL:

Sounds interesting, this "selection bias" stuff. Can you expand?
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:20 AM
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JM was the chairman who allowed the outsourcing of the E170/175. Are single biggest scope failure.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:36 AM
  #507  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
What I want is to be able to identify is a group, its' backers, and the vision. You said "If not ALPA without DALPA, then DPA". But... what's DPA's platform? And who are the people involved? Maybe we can get independent confirmation of this, but my source says DPA is a bunch of guys in Florida, anchored by JM and other former reps. These are the same guys that were behind the recall efforts in 44 last year.
It should be easy enough to find out if this is true.
Why rely on "sources"? Somebody just call or e-mail John Malone and ask him.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:50 AM
  #508  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
TANSTAAFL;
I was thinking of that this AM over my 5 AM cup of joe. Lets look at the web based survey, and the participation numbers in it. Some e-mails went out with it but pilots were not given an access code and told to go take it. I think that there is proof of self selection bias in the way it was done, and who participated. I am sure the MEC is also savvy enough to take these and the scientific survey and compare the results. That comparison is what is really telling, imo.
Yep. I recieved several e-mails asking for my participation, but no way to access the survey. There was also a survey link on the web site, but it wasn't active.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:51 AM
  #509  
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Originally Posted by Check Essential View Post
It should be easy enough to find out if this is true.
Why rely on "sources"? Somebody just call or e-mail John Malone and ask him.
Good point. And I was telling DAL330drvr on the other thread that it would be healthy if we could expose these things during union meetings, and give a chance to the person to explain or confront. And now... I'm quoting "a source". Oh the hypocrisy!

Then again...

a) I don't know how to get confirmation from that group while maintining my anonymity on this board, and
b) I don't know how a group could possibly try to oust a union without identifying itself. There a big difference I suppose between quoting hearsay about what an individual has said, and trying to figure out exactly who is trying to take control of our union, and why.

So if I can think of a way to confirm this, I will. Right now, I cannot.
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:15 AM
  #510  
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ACL et al,

I am with Carl on this one. You cannot change ALPA from within. Its like the Borg, resistance is futile - you must be assimilated. They have become so bloated that they no longer respond to the electorate. You need look no further than the age 65 issue.

To add a historical spin I submit this quote:

...governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

...

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
ALPA won't change unless it's forced to and lets face it, No one making 400K plus wants to rock the boat.
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