Delta Pilots Association
09-23-2010, 09:45 AM
#521
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
...make sense?
Fits into my point about the disconnect between how the pilots actually vote, and how the people on these forums (including me) think the pilots would vote.
09-23-2010, 09:54 AM
#522
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
"...Why we need professional negotiators..."
Manager,
So the professional negotiators would have done... what? Shown us the formulas to establish to us why management thought we were on the wrong end of the leverage? The paper explains why were bound to let ourselves get screwed, doesn't it?
A professional negotiator would probably be professional enough to understand we weren't in a winning situation. In that case, would it have been his/her duty to negotiate based on the existing situation, and maybe gotten us a worse outcome, depending on how defeatist or realist they might feel? Or do you maybe think he/she would have dazzled the company with some Jerry Maguire kind of stuff, and fooled them into thinking we weren't actually screwed?
The only leverage that mattered in this case was our ability to picket the right spots, and make the right noise in the press to inject doubt about our willingness to play along. Having people on the picket line demonstrated this. A guy in a suit saying we would walk... maybe would be convincing, or maybe not at all. I'd rather rely on Delta pilots with picket signs.
Manager,
So the professional negotiators would have done... what? Shown us the formulas to establish to us why management thought we were on the wrong end of the leverage? The paper explains why were bound to let ourselves get screwed, doesn't it?
A professional negotiator would probably be professional enough to understand we weren't in a winning situation. In that case, would it have been his/her duty to negotiate based on the existing situation, and maybe gotten us a worse outcome, depending on how defeatist or realist they might feel? Or do you maybe think he/she would have dazzled the company with some Jerry Maguire kind of stuff, and fooled them into thinking we weren't actually screwed?
The only leverage that mattered in this case was our ability to picket the right spots, and make the right noise in the press to inject doubt about our willingness to play along. Having people on the picket line demonstrated this. A guy in a suit saying we would walk... maybe would be convincing, or maybe not at all. I'd rather rely on Delta pilots with picket signs.
09-23-2010, 11:06 AM
#523
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by Sink r8
"...Why we need professional negotiators..."
Manager,
So the professional negotiators would have done... what? Shown us the formulas to establish to us why management thought we were on the wrong end of the leverage? The paper explains why were bound to let ourselves get screwed, doesn't it?
A professional negotiator would probably be professional enough to understand we weren't in a winning situation. In that case, would it have been his/her duty to negotiate based on the existing situation, and maybe gotten us a worse outcome, depending on how defeatist or realist they might feel? Or do you maybe think he/she would have dazzled the company with some Jerry Maguire kind of stuff, and fooled them into thinking we weren't actually screwed?
The only leverage that mattered in this case was our ability to picket the right spots, and make the right noise in the press to inject doubt about our willingness to play along. Having people on the picket line demonstrated this. A guy in a suit saying we would walk... maybe would be convincing, or maybe not at all. I'd rather rely on Delta pilots with picket signs.
Manager,
So the professional negotiators would have done... what? Shown us the formulas to establish to us why management thought we were on the wrong end of the leverage? The paper explains why were bound to let ourselves get screwed, doesn't it?
A professional negotiator would probably be professional enough to understand we weren't in a winning situation. In that case, would it have been his/her duty to negotiate based on the existing situation, and maybe gotten us a worse outcome, depending on how defeatist or realist they might feel? Or do you maybe think he/she would have dazzled the company with some Jerry Maguire kind of stuff, and fooled them into thinking we weren't actually screwed?
The only leverage that mattered in this case was our ability to picket the right spots, and make the right noise in the press to inject doubt about our willingness to play along. Having people on the picket line demonstrated this. A guy in a suit saying we would walk... maybe would be convincing, or maybe not at all. I'd rather rely on Delta pilots with picket signs.
The company has our psych profiles. ALPA's negotiating tactics are well known, and the guys that do the negotiating are pilots first and negotiators second. Not the other way around. That is a tremendous tactical disadvantage.
09-23-2010, 12:59 PM
#525
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by Sink r8
Interesting. I was just thinking about that this morning: identifiable groups and platforms would be very helpful. Parties: I'm in.
Also, I don't see why we can't vote for the guy that heads the union. If you could combine that with virtual meetings, you could actually get a feel for the people running.
As far as reviewing the influence of National on local afairs, and modifying the bylaws a little... absolutely. I think a lot of that already has been happening.
Now, back to parties. What I want is to be able to identify is a group, its' backers, and the vision. You said "If not ALPA without DALPA, then DPA". But... what's DPA's platform? And who are the people involved? Maybe we can get independent confirmation of this, but my source says DPA is a bunch of guys in Florida, anchored by JM and other former reps. These are the same guys that were behind the recall efforts in 44 last year.
For those who weren't at Delta as we entered BK, JM was the previous Chairman. He has enjoyed respect from the group for being the negotiator on C2K, but he also presided over LOA 46. LOA 46 was the tear-down of the contract, workrules, payrates (34%), and all we held sacred. Whereas we still got raped in LOA 51, it mostly cost 18%, workrules were not greatly affected (unfortunately it sealed the fate on the DB plan after the mass exodus), and we obtained some compensation in terms of the Note and the Claim. LOA 46 was the 2-hour gang-rape by a group of prison inmates, and LOA 51 was more of the personal, one-on-one-slip-em-a-little-something-in-their-drink-and-play-a-little-soft-music kind of a thing. By then, we were a little numb anyway, and all lubed up.
Disgusted? So were we.
At any rate, my point is that we fared far worse under the threat of BK, than under an actual 1113 motion.
So I'm all for being able to identify people running for things, especially if I already have read their resume. This is another reason I have a real problem with this DPA stuff. There is no substance on the website, no identifying the backers.... AND we've already done been there and seen that. This is the previous administration, repackaged. Poorly.
Maybe one of the proxies can confirm this, the guys with a few posts that weren't in any other discussion about cheerleaders, but are all active right now. I also understand from my one source that this group is backing candidates in elections. I only heard about NYC, my base: PM and the other guy, the senior ER CA whose name I forget right now (JD?). So it would appear they're playing both sides of the fence. So, by now, we've seen a recall attempt, an attempt to field candidates, and an attempt to change unions.
For what?
What is the platform? The plan? The vision?
So if JM wants to articulate some kind of vision, assuming this is anything but a personal vendetta, then by all means: express yourself. Otherwise, all this is, is a power grab, from which the Delta pilots cannot possibly benefit.
I've said before about LM that I don't want people to grow tentacles: they do their job, they move on. I think it's probably time for Lee to move on, and I'm happy that he's going for Prater's job. I think it would be good for the Delta pilots, and good for ALPA in general. It would let us focus more on our own affairs, and it would test the proposition made by this current MEC that we're a bottom-up organization (something I'm skeptical about). I also will repeat it: JM did his part well also. I think he did great in C2K, and I think he did so-so on LOA46. Still, I think he probably accurately represented the wishes of the group at the time. We all feel the sting from that period, but we don't care about the sting of internal politics felt by an individual. I still stupidly believe former Chairmen should gracefully let the following groups run the show, until the subsequent group, and then the two former Chairmen can have martinis together, while waiting for the next former Chairman.
Trying to defend our contracts is a ridiculously difficult proposition as it stands. Having people playing "Montagues and Capulets" on top is a dangerous distraction, wrapped inside a recipe for disaster.
Also, I don't see why we can't vote for the guy that heads the union. If you could combine that with virtual meetings, you could actually get a feel for the people running.
As far as reviewing the influence of National on local afairs, and modifying the bylaws a little... absolutely. I think a lot of that already has been happening.
Now, back to parties. What I want is to be able to identify is a group, its' backers, and the vision. You said "If not ALPA without DALPA, then DPA". But... what's DPA's platform? And who are the people involved? Maybe we can get independent confirmation of this, but my source says DPA is a bunch of guys in Florida, anchored by JM and other former reps. These are the same guys that were behind the recall efforts in 44 last year.
For those who weren't at Delta as we entered BK, JM was the previous Chairman. He has enjoyed respect from the group for being the negotiator on C2K, but he also presided over LOA 46. LOA 46 was the tear-down of the contract, workrules, payrates (34%), and all we held sacred. Whereas we still got raped in LOA 51, it mostly cost 18%, workrules were not greatly affected (unfortunately it sealed the fate on the DB plan after the mass exodus), and we obtained some compensation in terms of the Note and the Claim. LOA 46 was the 2-hour gang-rape by a group of prison inmates, and LOA 51 was more of the personal, one-on-one-slip-em-a-little-something-in-their-drink-and-play-a-little-soft-music kind of a thing. By then, we were a little numb anyway, and all lubed up.
Disgusted? So were we.
At any rate, my point is that we fared far worse under the threat of BK, than under an actual 1113 motion.
So I'm all for being able to identify people running for things, especially if I already have read their resume. This is another reason I have a real problem with this DPA stuff. There is no substance on the website, no identifying the backers.... AND we've already done been there and seen that. This is the previous administration, repackaged. Poorly.
Maybe one of the proxies can confirm this, the guys with a few posts that weren't in any other discussion about cheerleaders, but are all active right now. I also understand from my one source that this group is backing candidates in elections. I only heard about NYC, my base: PM and the other guy, the senior ER CA whose name I forget right now (JD?). So it would appear they're playing both sides of the fence. So, by now, we've seen a recall attempt, an attempt to field candidates, and an attempt to change unions.
For what?
What is the platform? The plan? The vision?
So if JM wants to articulate some kind of vision, assuming this is anything but a personal vendetta, then by all means: express yourself. Otherwise, all this is, is a power grab, from which the Delta pilots cannot possibly benefit.
I've said before about LM that I don't want people to grow tentacles: they do their job, they move on. I think it's probably time for Lee to move on, and I'm happy that he's going for Prater's job. I think it would be good for the Delta pilots, and good for ALPA in general. It would let us focus more on our own affairs, and it would test the proposition made by this current MEC that we're a bottom-up organization (something I'm skeptical about). I also will repeat it: JM did his part well also. I think he did great in C2K, and I think he did so-so on LOA46. Still, I think he probably accurately represented the wishes of the group at the time. We all feel the sting from that period, but we don't care about the sting of internal politics felt by an individual. I still stupidly believe former Chairmen should gracefully let the following groups run the show, until the subsequent group, and then the two former Chairmen can have martinis together, while waiting for the next former Chairman.
Trying to defend our contracts is a ridiculously difficult proposition as it stands. Having people playing "Montagues and Capulets" on top is a dangerous distraction, wrapped inside a recipe for disaster.
Your demand for immediate information and seeming paranoia make you appear less concerned about who in fact ultimately will do the best job representing the Delta pilot group than you are about protecting an entrenched group from their dominant controlling position. My suggestion, take a deep breath. Give this group 60 or 90 days to release more information.
The embryo phase of any new organization with limited resources takes some time to spool up. Just like in politics those with the most money are in a much better position to get the information out and educate. ALPA has our "tax money" and is the 800 pound gorilla right now. Btw, I would hope ALPA doesn't use any of our dollars to disparage the new group with.
I have not made a decision on which way I will go ALPA vs DPA but I can tell you I am happy to see an alternative to ALPA emerging. I am willing to wait a little longer and see what they have to say. If nothing else, the threat of a new organization will hopefully light a fire under the ars of ALPA to do some soul searching about how they operate and "represent".
Again, lets just see what emerges from all of this shall we? Lets give the new guys a chance to put together some resources and information. Ultimately it will take a majority of the pilot group to change organizations. The concept that pilots can think for themselves and make good decisions that affect their future (not back door decisions and side letters, etc) seems to be a concept ALPA has increasingly resisted in recent years (just read Prater's recent campaign letter about how he used his brilliant "leadership" to think for the pilots....leadership that flew directly in the face of a majority of what pilots indicated they wanted. Let this one be. If you are truly interested in whats best for the pilot group, let them hear out all parties and decide for themselves what is best.
Last edited by Jack Bauer; 09-23-2010 at 01:14 PM.
09-23-2010, 01:10 PM
#527
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by Jack Bauer
Your demand for immediate information and seeming paranoia make you appear less concerned about who in fact ultimately will do the best job representing the Delta pilot group than you are about protecting an entrenched group from their dominant controlling position. My suggestion, take a deep breath. Give this group 60 or 90 days to release more information.
The embryo phase of any new organization with limited resources takes some time to spool up...
The embryo phase of any new organization with limited resources takes some time to spool up...
This embryo argument is becoming a recurring theme, but not a particularly good point. If I was asking why they don't have emblazoned t-shirts made yet, and why I haven't received my pin, maybe I would be premature.
As for the suggestion I am only interested about preserving a certain group, I can't post the reply that first comes to mind explicitly here without violating the TOS. Or, come to think of it, the next few things that come to mind. If you're attacking my integrity, or questionning my interest in this group, there isn't much to talk about. I'm not defending anyone that's entrenched for the sake of defending them, nor am I affiliated with any group. I do think this MEC has served us well, and I support them as long as I approve of their actions. Nothing less, nothing more.
At any rate, settng aside this discussion about my character and intentions, and since it's DPA that's stepping up to a decertification effort, let's talk about them, and what they're failing to do.
I'm only asking that an organization that wants to represent us, and control our destiny, has the intellectual honesty to explain what it is, and who is backing it. It doesn't get more basic, or more critical than that. Beyond that, I think an organization that launches its' identity via a website is stepping into the world, ready to be scrutinized. Or should be ready, anyway. Is this the future for us, a union that is already making excuses for not turning its' homework in on time?
It's not my desire to find this out that is paranoid; it's your interest in decertifying a union for an alternative without knowing anything of substance about this "embryo" that is disconcerting.
At any rate, you are welcome to the last word. I'm pretty much spent on this issue. I'll see if this embryo gets past the "fail" state its' in right now. I agree with many here (including with your last two paragraphs) on several issues a) Prater needs to go, b) ALPA National is not a source of pride and could use a clean-up, c) DALPA's communications efforts suck, and d) maybe this DPA threat will effect some positive changes.
Last edited by Sink r8; 09-23-2010 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Editing... and Exiting
09-23-2010, 01:15 PM
#528
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
you know the one thing about having member elections of MEC folks and the use of political parties is that with a party you can get committed to a cause, not an individual.
Bingo. One of the biggest problems with our political system is a "choice A or choice B" of political parties... when it really boils down to choosing which group sucks less.
Let's not have that in the union.
09-23-2010, 01:24 PM
#530
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
And 7000 + self validating views many by the same people exercising an extreme statistical self selection bypass 
All hail the Internet, our newest form of government..............
All hail the Internet, our newest form of government..............Nothing extreme or self selective, just pure democracy. We'll see what happens.
Carl
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