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Old 10-12-2010, 11:45 AM
  #1021  
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To get this back on the DPA debate and not a scope debate, which we both want;

My biggest concern to date with an internal union revolves around the likeliness of us having to deal with a merger with AF/KLM in the future. (Or SkyTeam becoming an ATA code that outsources all of its flying to airlines like AF and DAL) We need the international structure of ALPA and the place at the table that ALPA and IFALPA give us. That is not easily replaced. Our deal with KF/KLM was possible by the existing relationship IFALAPA gave us. Remove that with the above possibility and it may prove disastrous to our pilots. There is little in the PWA that protects us if Skyteam morphs.

That is why I prefer to work very diligently to fix the issues we all see within ALPA than to take the risk of not having preexisting relationships with these groups down the road. (AF has two unions representing their group fwiw)

Like I said earlier I want to see ALPA given an opportunity to fix these issues before we would dump them.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:56 AM
  #1022  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
Carl;

Within the confines of the RLA doing what you propose has never been an option.
A strike is always within the confines of the RLA, and is therefore always an option. NWA and others have proved that many, many times. A strike takes patience and the will to do so. Raised regional pay will almost assuredly require a strike. Just like Spirit, NWA, etc....

Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
These pilots are willing to do whatever because there is no one telling them anything the opposite. Maybe ALPA can start there. It seems that they are.
That can't happen quick enough. Hopefully you are right.

Carl
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:01 PM
  #1023  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
To get this back on the DPA debate and not a scope debate, which we both want;
For me, the DPA debate is ALL about the scope debate. ALPA can't fix scope because they are conflicted. That's why Prater never mentions it, that's why Moak's campaign letter never mentioned it. ALPA won't fix scope because they can't. If ALPA can't, they'll hamstring and blockade all local efforts to try.

The DPA debate IS the scope debate!

Carl
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:32 PM
  #1024  
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this is eerie...

sounds just like the RJDC debate from about 10 years ago... except now on the other side.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:27 PM
  #1025  
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Carl;
I may be inclined to agree with you depending on what happens at UCAL. Like I said, I am not sold on the inability of ALPA, and their insistence that this cannot be brought back to the mainline side. IMO what makes UCAL different is that their entire pilot group wants the flying back. Given this stance we will see what ALPA (UALALPA) can pull off.

If you recall I was tagged as being a single issue guy and scope was the issue. You know where I stand on this issue. I have always felt this way, even when I was one of those RJ guys. The best leverage a group can have is when they perform all of their flying.

To you DPA may be just about scope, but my guess is that it is not just about that for a lot of guys. That is fine, but lets be realistic about it.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:59 PM
  #1026  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
Carl;
I may be inclined to agree with you depending on what happens at UCAL. Like I said, I am not sold on the inability of ALPA, and their insistence that this cannot be brought back to the mainline side. IMO what makes UCAL different is that their entire pilot group wants the flying back. Given this stance we will see what ALPA (UALALPA) can pull off.

If you recall I was tagged as being a single issue guy and scope was the issue. You know where I stand on this issue. I have always felt this way, even when I was one of those RJ guys. The best leverage a group can have is when they perform all of their flying.

To you DPA may be just about scope, but my guess is that it is not just about that for a lot of guys. That is fine, but lets be realistic about it.
I would hope that neither DPA nor ALPA would be just about scope. While that is one of the top (if not the top) issues, I think our compensation an extremely big issue that should not be ignored. This is one of my biggest problems with DALPA. They will not state restoration as an objective. They make it sound like our current situation is a new baseline from which we seek traditional improvements. Anyone who suggests the kinds of increases it would take to even make significant progress toward restoration is immediately dismissed as being "unreasonable."
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:02 PM
  #1027  
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DAL88;
I know we have discussed this, and I know what you want is "Our Goal is Restoration."

We all want it back. I hope that UCAL, and AMR get something done so we have build upon it in a few years.

We shall see what happens after our MEC elections next month.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:09 PM
  #1028  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver View Post
This is one of my biggest problems with DALPA. They will not state restoration as an objective. They make it sound like our current situation is a new baseline from which we seek traditional improvements. Anyone who suggests the kinds of increases it would take to even make significant progress toward restoration is immediately dismissed as being "unreasonable."
We've all hashed this before - but I'm willing one more time. It is my opinion that making that statement accomplishes nothing. Just look at APA. They very clearly stated their goals (which is to bring wages to inflation adjusted parity with 1985(?); what's not "fair" about that) for FOUR years, and what have they accomplished? Zilch. Zip. Nada.

Words mean nothing - unless they are backed up with action. I'd rather an MEC speak softly and accomplish something, rather than beat their chests loudly, shouting "RESTORATION" from the top of every roof top - for FOUR years - and yet accomplish nothing.... at least up until now.

But that's just my opinion.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:13 PM
  #1029  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
For me, the DPA debate is ALL about the scope debate. ALPA can't fix scope because they are conflicted. That's why Prater never mentions it, that's why Moak's campaign letter never mentioned it. ALPA won't fix scope because they can't. If ALPA can't, they'll hamstring and blockade all local efforts to try.

The DPA debate IS the scope debate!

Carl
Carl,

You are correct. Outsourcing is a poison to ALPA that will surely result in its death, either by irrelevance or replacement. I'm not sure the DPA is the answer because they've not published any strategy (or even intent). But if they start talking real unity, they will have my support in that goal.

Absolutely nothing says ALPA can not negotiate effective scope. Effective scope is a common goal.

That matter is, we have not wanted to negotiate effective scope.

Last edited by Bucking Bar; 10-12-2010 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:27 PM
  #1030  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver View Post
I would hope that neither DPA nor ALPA would be just about scope. While that is one of the top (if not the top) issues, I think our compensation an extremely big issue that should not be ignored. This is one of my biggest problems with DALPA. They will not state restoration as an objective. They make it sound like our current situation is a new baseline from which we seek traditional improvements. Anyone who suggests the kinds of increases it would take to even make significant progress toward restoration is immediately dismissed as being "unreasonable."
DAL88 Driver,

Without scope, pay rates do not matter. The Company will simply outsource the jobs and no one will earn the negotiated pay rates. Refer to the "restoration" of B scale at Express for an example.

Scope was sold in an attempt to preserve pay rates, which only lasted until concessionary bargaining and bankruptcy. In other words, your MEC sold scope for credits you never received. You got nothing for it.

Now we got nothing to trade, unless you want to trade 100 seat flying. If you are an MD88 driver, you most likely would be effected by a 100 seat scope sale. It is a vicious circle.

What you don't know is that now your MEC only represents about half of Delta flying. As jobs have been outsourced, so has their power to represent a monopoly of Delta's labor. Your union is less able to secure higher pay rates because they have less leverage.

There is also the issue of economics. Here is a chart of yields in our industry. There are two components to getting you the pay restoration you seek:
(1) We must control the flying. It has to be done by us.
(2) Our industry needs more revenue.
> 2a. One way to force more revenue is to get the other pilot groups to negotiate higher pay rates too. The best way to do that is a strong national association.

The chart below clearly shows the money is not there to simply stomp our feet and demand more. Candidly, I think our MEC has done a pretty good job leveraging what they had to work with. We are currently near the top of our peer group. To advance we really need American, United, and US Air to help hold up their end of the pay scale.


Last edited by Bucking Bar; 10-12-2010 at 03:48 PM.
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