Delta Pilots Association
08-13-2011, 07:35 AM
#6021
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Why is he waiting for the survey? He and ALPA national are not waiting for the survey to talk very effectively about the dangers of cabotage, subsidized foreign carriers, etc. Dangers are dangers, and they should be discussed in real time.
UNLESS...you don't think scope erosion is a danger. That sir, is the crux of this matter.
Carl
UNLESS...you don't think scope erosion is a danger. That sir, is the crux of this matter.
Carl
That's one area where the DPA, T.C. and ALPA all agree, that the survey process needs to be followed.
You and I agree we should make unity statements NOW. As others have pointed out, assuring pilots that no one's job would be sold would have "killed the baby in the crib" as someone else stated.
Carl, you and I want exactly the same thing. If I thought the DPA was the best choice, I would already be on board. If the DPA wins, I'll get on board.
BB
08-13-2011, 07:36 AM
#6022
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
I hold down THREE jobs. Still, I can't make up for the $20,000 bath I took in the markets last week.
No, I'm not thrilled with my pay, but realistically, I'm doing better than 80% of US Air. In this market (both as Delta pilots and in our personal dealings) we have to deal with reality. Assumptions, like an 8% return on investment (4% after inflation), are probably gone. Further, you may find yourself as the one wage earner in your immediate family, or extended family. Our neighbors on either side don't really have jobs and are now picking up contract gigs here and there while letting their other real estate investments (which were speculative) go back to banks.
Point being, a lack of pragmatism and care can hurt a guy a lot worse in this economy than in typical times when errors could be caught back up. We do not need a repeat of last decade. Would I like a 35% raise? Sure. Would I like a 35% raise which would nearly certainly result in the loss of my job?
My preference is to work with Delta to find a model by which Delta pilots perform Delta flying. I'm fine with reasonable wages and I'll enjoy a more than 35% raise by upgrading and getting back in the command seat. There is potential for a win / win here, by our doing our flying more productively with less managerial redundancy.
No, I'm not thrilled with my pay, but realistically, I'm doing better than 80% of US Air. In this market (both as Delta pilots and in our personal dealings) we have to deal with reality. Assumptions, like an 8% return on investment (4% after inflation), are probably gone. Further, you may find yourself as the one wage earner in your immediate family, or extended family. Our neighbors on either side don't really have jobs and are now picking up contract gigs here and there while letting their other real estate investments (which were speculative) go back to banks.
Point being, a lack of pragmatism and care can hurt a guy a lot worse in this economy than in typical times when errors could be caught back up. We do not need a repeat of last decade. Would I like a 35% raise? Sure. Would I like a 35% raise which would nearly certainly result in the loss of my job?
My preference is to work with Delta to find a model by which Delta pilots perform Delta flying. I'm fine with reasonable wages and I'll enjoy a more than 35% raise by upgrading and getting back in the command seat. There is potential for a win / win here, by our doing our flying more productively with less managerial redundancy.
Carl
08-13-2011, 07:41 AM
#6023
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
80, 88, Scambo and Carl,
I'm a little bit of a representational agnostic. Whether ALPA or the DPA represents pilots matters less to me than how they do their job.
ALPA's got more tools in it's tool box. It hasn't used them. Unity is the "breaker bar" which has been sitting under a pile of dust since the 1960's. I'm hoping to convince our MEC to toss the rechargeable 6 volt crap and grab that thing in the bottom of the box with the Big Freaking Long Steel Handle on which is printed, "UNITY, DELTA PILOTS DO DELTA FLYING"
The DPA simply doesn't own that tool. They can't buy it, rent it, or borrow it.
I'm a little bit of a representational agnostic. Whether ALPA or the DPA represents pilots matters less to me than how they do their job.
ALPA's got more tools in it's tool box. It hasn't used them. Unity is the "breaker bar" which has been sitting under a pile of dust since the 1960's. I'm hoping to convince our MEC to toss the rechargeable 6 volt crap and grab that thing in the bottom of the box with the Big Freaking Long Steel Handle on which is printed, "UNITY, DELTA PILOTS DO DELTA FLYING"
The DPA simply doesn't own that tool. They can't buy it, rent it, or borrow it.
Carl
08-13-2011, 07:44 AM
#6024
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Exactly. They are the Charlie Sheen of lawyers, they are bi winning ... won for the Continental Scabs, managed de facto prevention of unity at US Air ... win here, win there.
Charlie Sheen Winning Parody, free download bo selecta sounds effects, sound effects for theatre production, hollywood sounds
Charlie Sheen Winning Parody, free download bo selecta sounds effects, sound effects for theatre production, hollywood sounds
Does that make ALPA bi-losers?Carl
08-13-2011, 07:46 AM
#6025
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Carl,
Sir, you enjoy financial luxuries that my generation and my kids, are unlikely to see.
The concept of a funded "retirement" for starters.
In effect, employers and the government set up a ponzi scheme, which has now collapsed. It's unfair to all involved and probably worst for folks who depended on it and had it disappear just before it was needed.
On the other hand, my parents and some older friends are enjoying multiple, fully funded retirement programs. One former boss is over $250K in retirement due to the ability to collect 100% from 6 different sources (he and his wife's benes).
Sir, you enjoy financial luxuries that my generation and my kids, are unlikely to see.
The concept of a funded "retirement" for starters.
In effect, employers and the government set up a ponzi scheme, which has now collapsed. It's unfair to all involved and probably worst for folks who depended on it and had it disappear just before it was needed.
On the other hand, my parents and some older friends are enjoying multiple, fully funded retirement programs. One former boss is over $250K in retirement due to the ability to collect 100% from 6 different sources (he and his wife's benes).
08-13-2011, 07:48 AM
#6026
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
While I totally disagree with you on this, I have a question my agnostic friend. What is worse: A union that allegedly doesn't have the tool, or a union that does have the tool but REFUSES to use it?
Carl
Carl
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Wow. How embarrassing it must be for ALPA to be beaten by the "Charlie Sheen" of law firms. Does that make ALPA bi-losers?
Carl
Does that make ALPA bi-losers?Carl
08-13-2011, 07:51 AM
#6027
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Thanks for the civil replies. Tough to break into the middle of a conversation which, after scanning back through this thread, obviously has been going on for some time between many of you folks.
The conversation at times does get into the weeds. I'll admit that I don't buy off on all these conspiracy about scope. Just from a practical point of view, it make no sense for an institution, whose revenue comes from a set percentage of our dues, to have any incentive to drive the flying to lower paying pilots. Also, my reps are solid on scope and I haven't heard of any who aren't.
From my perspective this really boils down to who can get us the best contract in the shortest period of time, who can best represent the Delta pilots day in , day out. That second point is kind of important too and not many folks talking about it. It's no small task to represent our pilot group, lots of planes, lots of pilots, doing lots of flying in lots of places. ALPA does a pretty good job, safety committee, scheduling, contract admin etc. I suspect that's a great deal of work.
Back to my first point, best contract in the shortest time, a straight line makes the most sense to me, but I don't claim to be the brightest tool in the shed, so I'm willing to listen to civil debate. Why should I believe that DPA can deliver the better contract in the shortest time?
The conversation at times does get into the weeds. I'll admit that I don't buy off on all these conspiracy about scope. Just from a practical point of view, it make no sense for an institution, whose revenue comes from a set percentage of our dues, to have any incentive to drive the flying to lower paying pilots. Also, my reps are solid on scope and I haven't heard of any who aren't.
From my perspective this really boils down to who can get us the best contract in the shortest period of time, who can best represent the Delta pilots day in , day out. That second point is kind of important too and not many folks talking about it. It's no small task to represent our pilot group, lots of planes, lots of pilots, doing lots of flying in lots of places. ALPA does a pretty good job, safety committee, scheduling, contract admin etc. I suspect that's a great deal of work.
Back to my first point, best contract in the shortest time, a straight line makes the most sense to me, but I don't claim to be the brightest tool in the shed, so I'm willing to listen to civil debate. Why should I believe that DPA can deliver the better contract in the shortest time?
08-13-2011, 07:55 AM
#6028
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
How would / could DPA deal with "big" issues, like cabotage, multi crew pilot licensure, unmanned aircraft ... issues which need to be addressed with the legitimacy of being "the" pilots' union?
The one power we actually DO have is what we negotiate in our respective Section 1. That's something our union actually controls. Yet our union is completely mute on the subject. Instead, our union crows about something they'll have no input on whatsoever.
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Unions get their power directly from those they represent. ALPA represents more than 53,000 pilots at 39 airlines just here and in Canada. DPA does not have that tool in it's tool box. By trying to leverage a "conflict of interest" into a representational "raison d' etre" the DPA is more about building a fence than building bridges.
Carl
08-13-2011, 08:03 AM
#6029
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
I'll grant you SWA, but we also have to consider management buffoonery. SWA did not blow over $50,000,000,000 on RJ's. (25 billion last 12 years, nearly that much until the expiration of current contracts).
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
None of the airlines you listed have the business model of the typical legacy carrier.
Carl
08-13-2011, 08:08 AM
#6030
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Carl,
That's one area where the DPA, T.C. and ALPA all agree, that the survey process needs to be followed.
That's one area where the DPA, T.C. and ALPA all agree, that the survey process needs to be followed.
Carl
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