acl65pilot

Depends. If the support was for the internal effort was wall thought out, wanted to work within the system, and was organized, I bet you would see more support.

Many of the pilots I talk to agree that change within ALPA needs to happen. They want the change, but as part of ALPA, not as an independent. One Captain I flew with brought up PPA which was a drive before half the list was here. He comment was, "Fool me once...." The point is that he does not trust these independent movements because of what was the underlying motivators on the last one. Ergo, he feels the same this time. This is what I have run in to many times in conversation. Most will not even give an independent a second thought.

ALPA warts and all provides services that are second to none. There is no denying it. Find a pilot that has had their job protected by those services, and you find someone that, though critical of some of ALPA's actions prefers to remodel the current house than tear it down and build a new one.

This is what, it would serve those involved within DPA to work within the system under an organized effort. If every one or most within ALPA have nefarious intentions like some purport, the damage inflicted to get the masses to see would be so great, that any union would that would be successful in throwing out ALPA would be largely ineffective. Therefore, it is wise to work under the current system and affect the change you want. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not.

acl65pilot

It could be locked if the need arose, but I still think that there are some decent ideas floating around on this thread. There I said it.

acl65pilot

Yes and no. A LEC can send out communication that goes around the MEC, but in reality the checks that the MEC Communications committee are generally grammatical in nature, and also make sure the content is correct and legally sound. If any LEC wants to put out communication without this check it is their right. Some do, some do not.

Also, I personally believe that it is wise that our Reps get all of the facts on the Scope issue(s) before the comment publicly on them. There are always little details that are very important. I hope that some of these details are discussed at the MEC Meeting today.

Either way, it is good practice to get all facts before taking a position. It is a lot easier for a Rep to give their current "position" on an issue on the phone or face to face, than it is to put it in print. That is why it is wise to communicate directly to your reps frequently.

dragon

I hope the MEC does talk about the issues we've been discussing here lately. The real question is whether any of us will find out what was said. I suspect they'll do most of it in executive session so that they don't have to be bothered by the peasants - I mean members.

Sorry, that was a bit snippy, but the term I like to use with regard to the MEC is mushrooming. They're keeping us in the dark and feeding us SH**. We don't know what they know (their words) so we must therefore trust them to look out for us. I spoke with my rep, and he's echoing what Caddis says and I've been very pleased with the comms I've seen out of Council 1 and 20. As a south guy, it's light years ahead of 66 or 108.

caddis

ACL I respect a lot of what you say but unfortunately lately you seem to have become an ALPA cheerleader/apologist. You went from a guy who likes to connect the company info dots to a guy who it appears is looking to become a member of the ALPA machine.

There is no getting around the fact that communication from ALPA sucks. Dragon's mushroom comment is right on. Let me give you an example. On the north side when there was an MEC meeting we would get an update each day of that meeting. At the end there would be some comprehensive wrap up of it. However our com. chair refuses to do this because... well I don't know why. Then a month or more later the notes are posted on the ALPA website. Explain to me why we can't get a email with this information.

Also as far as the LEC comments being corrected for grammar errors, give me a break. The MEC wants everything passed through them to control the message. I have been told this is the case by 4 different reps from different LECs. Moak is stilling pulling the strings at this union.

To keep this DPA related I was told the following from my Rep. DPA has now in the range of 3000 cards turned in and South guys have put in more cards then North guys.

I want DALPA to succeed but if things don't change soon I will be putting in my DPA card and passing them out in the crew rooms. The best part, I am not a fan of some of the DPA guys, but it may be the only way to force change.

Carl Spackler

Here's why it is exactly the same: DALPA's constant series of week long complaints to the ATL chief pilots were allegations of policy violation and agreement violation. The names of the DPA folks against whom the allegations were made, were right there in the crew lounge for the chief pilots to see. Everyone knew their names. If any of DALPA's allegations of policy violations had been correct, management could have chosen disciplinary action against any and all of the DPA folks.

My post above should show you that your parenthetical assumption (NO DISCIPLINE INVOLVED) may or may not be the case. It is up to the Chief Pilot's Office to decide on disciplinary action.

I don't know. I'm also not sure the chief pilot would be allowed to answer that question if you asked it.

It is sad to see. But the antithesis of unionism may well have happened on both sides. DPA will claim they finally reached their limit after a week of constant allegations made against them by DALPA operatives, and the straw that broke the camel's back was the filthy and sexually explicit video that surfaced using Delta's name and denigrating the DPA. DALPA will claim just the opposite.

If I had been the ATL LEC Chairman, I would have set up a table with an ALPA sign and let the DPA talk and advertise their plans completely without restrictions. My sign at the ALPA table would have simply read: "See us if you wish to hear a rebuttal to the DPA's claims." That's how I would have shown my members that I'm afraid of nobody and can fully explain the actions of DALPA.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Outstanding statement. Well done.

DOH! And you were doing so well.

When are you ever going to back away from the political double speak acl? Always mind the will of the pilots, but make sure the will of the pilots is not a "fools errand"? acl65pilot translation: ONLY mind the pilot's will if in your judgment as union leadership you agree with the pilots will. If you don't agree with their will, just refer to it as a "fools errand", then claim your polling data supports your view...if you were only allowed to show it.

Carl

Carl Spackler

You are 100% correct Bar. Why the hell can't they make this simple public acknowledgment?

Carl

Carl Spackler

Here's what you'll never understand. DALPA is currently not defending a blatant violation of Section 1. DALPA is currently sending out communications to get us prepared for the start of Section 6. What are those communications? - Understanding financial statements, cash flow and airline accounting methodologies, etc. Why would they do that unless they are trying to get us to understand management's point of view.

DALPA is weak and totally broken in my opinion. None of their initial communications are saying things like have been said by the Council 20 guys such as: "When RA came to visit and we talked about contract improvements, he clearly had his game face on". DALPA should be saying: ...and given this fact - it is time for everyone to start saving up a war chest of at least 6 months of living expenses." That's how you begin to speak to your union members when you know you have a management team that is willing to give nothing. But DALPA is not doing that. I believe it's because they agree with management, and they are trying to convince us as well. Our only hope is a serious card drive during Section 6 to force our own union to negotiate like a union...or risk their removal.

Carl

Carl Spackler

That is such an important question.

Carl