Bucking Bar

Nice flame bait.

The garbage you wrote is not at all true. I have known ACL for a decade an a half. We were ASA pilots who welcomed Delta pilots and were thankful to have them. Our argument then, as it is now, is that unity means building bridges.

Not that you are interested in historical accuracy, but the RJDC and the Comair MEC Chairman are two completely different entities and they disagreed with each other.

By the way, there can't be more than a couple of folks down in Guatemala on this board. Bring back a bag of local coffee and we'll brew it up and try to get your head straight.

Back in 2000 your reply to those who thought it best to merge Delta's acquired airlines (back when Delta did 91% of its flying) was "if you want to work for Delta, apply and get hired." A handful waited 7 years for Delta to hire. Delta selected them first from among 12,000 candidates. A gentleman would congratulate them on following your recommendation.

In the mean time your MEC outsourced half of your flying. Me thinks you are angry at the wrong people.

Bucking Bar

Carl,

OK ... lets say it was the "fault" of the RJ pilots. If we accept that premise, how do we fix it? Wouldn't we have to have control over their bargaining?

In reality the blame can be shared with a variety of groups. Mostly management and mainline MEC's who sat at the table and bargained these deals. Did folks hire in to perform that flying? ... sure. (for the record, ACL was on board before the massive order was announced ... should he have quit in protest? ... he tried, he was to interview in 2001 )*

If you want to blame them go ahead, but it makes no difference in the solution.

The regional guys tried to cut their own scope deals and ALPA blocked them. They sued claiming they should have an equal right to negotiate contracts that the mainline members of ALPA enjoyed. That historical record shows that ALPA was fighting to maintain mainline pilot exclusivity in bargaining.

End of the day, it does not matter who we "blame." The fix remains the same.

Bucking Bar

The only "list" are the names on the litigation, which is a matter of public record. The list that was circulated around the NYC base a few years back was mostly compiled from folks the writer did not like from web board disagreements.

That's like blaming Glenn Beck for getting the United States into war. The list did not identify the correct folks, which makes it petty much useless as a list.

Carl Spackler

While I don't agree with the ratio that you assign blame, at least you acknowledge that some of the blame rests with RJ pilots. And for that, I appreciate your openness and honesty.

Quitting is up to the individual. I would have asked myself and other fellow RJ pilots: "Why do the majors want to outsource this flying to us?" Is it because we're cooler? Probably not. Is it because the majors don't want to keep all the profits to themselves and just want to share with their regional partners? Probably not. Is it because we RJ pilots are working for wages that qualify us for food stamps? Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Once I realized that, I would have wanted to strike the airline to get my wages up close to the majors' level.

Let me ask you: Why didn't RJ pilots strike their airlines to get wages up close to the level of the majors?

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl;
We are getting in to schematics here. Of course there were pilots lining up to fly a RJ for 20 bucks an hr with a wet commercial from the flight farms. I agree that is a problem. It is also why I strongly support the Education Committee that goes to these schools and educates the future aviators about the pitfalls of this career. Historically pilots are going to go where they can to get to a major asap. The cannot see the bigger picture. I knew nothing about it.

Regionals were the ticket in the 90's as you were flying a turbo prop and then on to the majors. I agree that changed in 2001. Trust me, I was not happy to see the Regional airlines explode and the mainline shrink. It cause stagnation and eventually wage concession though the Ch11 era. I did not like seeing my former airline triple in size in four years while DAL shrank by 40%. I did not like Mesa coming in and further driving downward pressure on the industry, I did not like Go Jets being created to work around Trans States Contractual issues, and a lot more.

Where we as a group have failed is in education of the future aviators. I have stated that many times. I had no idea about the throws of this industry prior to my regional gig. I wished I did. We need to start there. I still maintain that the fix needs to come from the majors, and the existing regionals together. They need better contracts and we need better scope. It is a two pronged effort. Simply stating that guys should not take a job is imo just plain naive. New pilots are going to do whatever they can to get to where they want ASAP. The fix to the problem needs to be guys like you and I not voting for more scope concession, and regional guys demanding better pay at every section six. Both will solve the issue over time. If there is less flying, there will be less slots. Lets start there.

To answer you one question. Comair tried it in 2001 with a 89 day strike that raised their top rate to almost 118 an hr. They have since then been shrunk in to an oblivion.

In the end, we both agree that the regionals are a problem. I like the fact that you care deeply about scope. So lets work on the fix, and quit assigning blame. I am guilty of this as are you.

80ktsClamp

AH HA! Again, faulty logic... or just not paying attention. The regional I worked for has been under an amendable contract since not long after I got there. The NMB has refused to release them over and over, even though they are a small carrier and mgmt continually stone walled.

So...what now? Wildcat strike? Do entertain me with what you would have done.

scambo1

The last couple of pages, if they have done nothing else, have highlighted that former RJ pilots and entrenched mainline pilots who now work for the SAME carrier - cannot agree on the history of how we got here...outsourced city.

To extrapolate this logic by one order of magnitude, I think this small example should clarify to the readership that one union CANNOT represent both the mainline and connection groups at the same time.

Please, please, PUHLEEEZE, at least within our own group on the same seniority list, can we just try to find the spark of Unity, UNANIMITY of purpose, hand holding kumbayaness. C'mon guys group hug.

Carl Spackler

I don't know what schematics has to do with this?

It's not naive. Not if they are educated at all. Why make no money to build time, to get to a job that won't be there. Education.

I have no sympathy whatsoever to a pilot with that view. A pilot who says he/she will do whatever they can to get to where they want ASAP is nothing more than a scab IMO. You can't say you'll do anything to get where you want. There is such a thing as ethics...as naive as that may sound.

Yes.

Yes...and striking if they don't get it.

So what! That only proves the thesis that regionals are only there because management has found a cheaper place to obtain pilot services. If you don't want to risk shrinking in order to get acceptable pay, then you're saying you'll continue to be the low pay conduit that management is looking for. Again, for that, I have no sympathy.

That's OK with me. I was only assigning blame because the only thing I ever heard from you (until now) is that this whole mess was ALL the fault of major pilots. That was simply not the case. We are guilty, but we were and are only half the problem.

Carl

Carl Spackler

I have no intention of answering this new question of yours until you answer my last post to you...in which I asked if you would either ignore it or change the subject. You surprised me by doing both.

Answer my last post.

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl;
The whole regional mess is just that. It started in 1993 when Comair was given the CRJ-200. Why it was not flying at mainline is beyond me. We have all talked about that.

What I see the regional guys doing now is trying like crazy to raise the bar. It is difficult at best. Within the confines of the RLA doing what you propose has never been an option.

Why don't you volunteer on the ALPA Education Committee. I would have preferred to listen to you over some of the EAL guys that were teaching the throws of the industry that were dumped in 1991. We all know what they are affectionately called.

These pilots are willing to do whatever because there is no one telling them anything the opposite. Maybe ALPA can start there. It seems that they are.