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Old 10-13-2010, 04:07 AM
  #1051  
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I just think we need to remember that UCAL (CAL in particular) and AMR have been in talks for a very long time. I do not recall seeing AMR's pay proposal and restoration stance made public until year two or three. CAL made their last proposal before the company responded with DAL plus a buck public about a year and a half ago.

Both of these groups were well in to section six talks at the time.

I too would love to see a proposal that demanded scope and wage restoration like theirs. Will we see that? No idea. I know what will be on my survey. I talk to my reps, and get the general impression that they will do exactly what this group wants them to do. Like I have said, make your fellow pilots that simply punch a time card get involved. Make them aware, and then maybe the general consensus will be what most on here are advocating.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:09 AM
  #1052  
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Originally Posted by gloopy
True, although to put it in proper perspective, CAL was offered "DAL +1%" and they swiftly rejected it. Was that because they want fatter raises than that? Probably. But a HUGE part of it was that their management's offer included DL scope, which was huge relief to CAL's industry leading scope. That is encouraging.

In any case, I don't expect LM or anyone in DALPA to come out publicly with a percentage raise or some arbitrary date adjusted for inflation, etc right now. I don't think that is smart at all. But what I do expect is certain language about the general direction of expected pay restoration and other non-negotiables. Something like this:

When our airline needed us the most, the Delta and Northwest pilots stepped up and made enormous sacrifices to save our company. We agreed to staggering pay and benefit cuts, the elimination of our pensions and draconian outsourcing of our jobs, even as we were rapidly losing them. We were told that this had to be done to save the company. Although we gave deeply, and in most cases we gave back far too much for far too long, we did save our airline. In addition to that, even while working for years under a temporary emergency contract negotiated under duress on the bankruptcy courthouse steps, we helped facilitate what many agree is one of the most successful airline mergers in history and in record time. We are now making record profits and reaping operational synergies that are the envy of the industry. As before, we remain partners in our airline's success as no one has a more vested interest in the long term success of Delta Air Lines than its over 12,000 professional pilots. As the ammendable date for our temporary and emergency bankruptcy contract, signed under extreme hardship to save the airline and then extended yet again to facilitate the merger, comes to a close in the coming years, Delta's pilots seek only to recapture significant portions of what was lost. While pay will definately go up and outsourcing will absolutely be reduced commensurate with the level of sacrifice and investment made in our airline in its hour of need and continually through the decade since, our company, its shareholders and its customers should know that the pilots of Delta Air Lines remain committed to significant yet sustainable contractual restorations that will ensure the long term success of our proud and industry leading airline.

Or something like that, whatever. The point is, there are ways to state our goals without having to worry about specific numbers or percentages over 2 years and an almost entire peer set negotiation cycle ahead of ourselves. However, there are some things that need to be said that are not only not being said, they are flat out being actively avoided and that is completely unacceptable. AA has a specific pay proposal, UCAL has a specific scope proposal, and both are industry dominating, yet we seem too timid to even dare suggest even in theory that pay will go up or, God forbid, that outsourcing will go down. If we stand for nothing, we'll fall for anything. Time to nut up. At least a little bit.
VERY well said, Gloopy! This is exactly the kind of stuff I am talking about. (And then, sadly, it gets mischaracterized.) This is what I want to see from DALPA.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:10 AM
  #1053  
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Originally Posted by scambo1
Gloopy;
What are you doing up at this hour? Go to sleep.

I wouldn't change a word of what you said. I would also bet that your wording resonates with a large percentage of pilots. If wording to this effect were actually put out there by "our" union, it would be a gigantic morale booster. Pilot interest and involvement would go through the roof. IMO.

Why they don't make statements like this is very telling about "our" union's agenda IMO. I think they like the rank and file disenfranchised and demoralized, it helps them with their agenda of doing little. Its not a career anymore, its a job. ALPA is the "career" and gravy train today.

In terms of cost to the company, pilots as a group are FREE compared to the pay and benefits of 2003. Keep posting, good stuff!
You hit the nail on the head with this post, Scambo! Well done!!
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:17 AM
  #1054  
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Glopy,

That paragraph, should be read by LM at the ALPA BOD meeting. Possibly setting the "tone" of the new forthcoming ALPA leader.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:25 AM
  #1055  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
AH HA! Again, faulty logic... or just not paying attention. The regional I worked for has been under an amendable contract since not long after I got there. The NMB has refused to release them over and over, even though they are a small carrier and mgmt continually stone walled.

So...what now? Wildcat strike? Do entertain me with what you would have done.
Clamp, the NMB is comprised of 3 political appointees, only 2 of which can be from the same party. Since the latest appointee was was put in place by the current administration in 2009, its safe to say that the previous members were appointed by the past administration...which was not exactly labor friendly...has your former regional asked for a release lately?
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:38 AM
  #1056  
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Originally Posted by gloopy
True, although to put it in proper perspective, CAL was offered "DAL +1%" and they swiftly rejected it. Was that because they want fatter raises than that? Probably. But a HUGE part of it was that their management's offer included DL scope, which was huge relief to CAL's industry leading scope. That is encouraging.

In any case, I don't expect LM or anyone in DALPA to come out publicly with a percentage raise or some arbitrary date adjusted for inflation, etc right now. I don't think that is smart at all. But what I do expect is certain language about the general direction of expected pay restoration and other non-negotiables. Something like this:

When our airline needed us the most, the Delta and Northwest pilots stepped up and made enormous sacrifices to save our company. We agreed to staggering pay and benefit cuts, the elimination of our pensions and draconian outsourcing of our jobs, even as we were rapidly losing them. We were told that this had to be done to save the company. Although we gave deeply, and in most cases we gave back far too much for far too long, we did save our airline. In addition to that, even while working for years under a temporary emergency contract negotiated under duress on the bankruptcy courthouse steps, we helped facilitate what many agree is one of the most successful airline mergers in history and in record time. We are now making record profits and reaping operational synergies that are the envy of the industry. As before, we remain partners in our airline's success as no one has a more vested interest in the long term success of Delta Air Lines than its over 12,000 professional pilots. As the ammendable date for our temporary and emergency bankruptcy contract, signed under extreme hardship to save the airline and then extended yet again to facilitate the merger, comes to a close in the coming years, Delta's pilots seek only to recapture significant portions of what was lost. While pay will definately go up and outsourcing will absolutely be reduced commensurate with the level of sacrifice and investment made in our airline in its hour of need and continually through the decade since, our company, its shareholders and its customers should know that the pilots of Delta Air Lines remain committed to significant yet sustainable contractual restorations that will ensure the long term success of our proud and industry leading airline.

Or something like that, whatever. The point is, there are ways to state our goals without having to worry about specific numbers or percentages over 2 years and an almost entire peer set negotiation cycle ahead of ourselves. However, there are some things that need to be said that are not only not being said, they are flat out being actively avoided and that is completely unacceptable. AA has a specific pay proposal, UCAL has a specific scope proposal, and both are industry dominating, yet we seem too timid to even dare suggest even in theory that pay will go up or, God forbid, that outsourcing will go down. If we stand for nothing, we'll fall for anything. Time to nut up. At least a little bit.
An excellent post about communications, but not about timing. 1) LM will be gone as MEC Chairman in a couple of weeks (I don't believe he's running for that position), and 2) AMR is four years into their contract negotiations, and UAL and CAL pilots are right in the middle of current merger negotiations. Our contract is amendable at the end of 2012. Discussions can start sometimes before that (is it six or eighteen months?). In this case, I think the driver for meaningful negotiations will be (other than our resolve) the new duty/flight time rules that will give an incentive for the company to sit down. So if you're busy rallying the troops now, you've got a bit of a chronological problem, and you've got the outgoing Chairman stealing the thunder of the next guy.

DALPA lately has been horrible at carrying a dialogue with the Delta pilots in quiet times, but the communications during BK were actually were well targeted. The timing of a message matters, not just the contents. There is noone in the public with a 2-3 years attention span that will anticipate our contract. When our turn comes up, and the press is following, we need to be clear and affective. The appointment of a new chairman would provide a good point to place a new message in the interim.

Last edited by Sink r8; 10-13-2010 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:49 AM
  #1057  
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Originally Posted by scambo1
Gloopy;
What are you doing up at this hour? Go to sleep.

I wouldn't change a word of what you said. I would also bet that your wording resonates with a large percentage of pilots. If wording to this effect were actually put out there by "our" union, it would be a gigantic morale booster. Pilot interest and involvement would go through the roof. IMO.

Why they don't make statements like this is very telling about "our" union's agenda IMO. I think they like the rank and file disenfranchised and demoralized, it helps them with their agenda of doing little. Its not a career anymore, its a job. ALPA is the "career" and gravy train today.

In terms of cost to the company, pilots as a group are FREE compared to the pay and benefits of 2003. Keep posting, good stuff!
I agree, but wouldn't it be better to hear this from the next MEC Chairman? I think it would resonate as you say, but it would coincide with the appointment of someone new. I think that would energize us more than hearing it from someone who is campaigning for ALPA president but not DALPA MEC chairman. Moak's gone. The Black Swan stuff was addressed to us, but I think it's really a candidacy letter for the other job. Sure didn't connect with the audience if it was intended only for us.

I like the idea of using constructive engagement strategically as a tool, and only while the company is willing to do their part. I'd like some continuity in the actions of the MEC, but I also dislike entrenched politicians. So I'm for mixing in enough new blood to make sure our guys are not losing their minds, but also not so much that they can't continue what I think is a more effective approach. I think it would be great for the next guy, elected ahead of C12, to offer the kind of more sharply defined message we want to hear: a little less "constructive egagement", a little more "result-driven engagement".

"Result-driven engagement" sure has a nice ring to it, the more I think about it.

Last edited by Sink r8; 10-13-2010 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:58 AM
  #1058  
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Great points Sink!
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:06 AM
  #1059  
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Originally Posted by gloopy
However, there are some things that need to be said that are not only not being said, they are flat out being actively avoided and that is completely unacceptable. AA has a specific pay proposal, UCAL has a specific scope proposal, and both are industry dominating, yet we seem too timid to even dare suggest even in theory that pay will go up or, God forbid, that outsourcing will go down. If we stand for nothing, we'll fall for anything. Time to nut up. At least a little bit.
Gloopy...you are the man!!!!!

Carl
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:10 AM
  #1060  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8
An excellent post about communications, but not about timing. 1) LM will be gone as MEC Chairman in a couple of weeks (I don't believe he's running for that position), and 2) AMR is four years into their contract negotiations, and UAL and CAL pilots are right in the middle of current merger negotiations. Our contract is amendable at the end of 2012. Discussions can start sometimes before that (is it six or eighteen months?). In this case, I think the driver for meaningful negotiations will be (other than our resolve) the new duty/flight time rules that will give an incentive for the company to sit down. So if you're busy rallying the troops now, you've got a bit of a chronological problem, and you've got the outgoing Chairman stealing the thunder of the next guy.

DALPA lately has been horrible at carrying a dialogue with the Delta pilots in quiet times, but the communications during BK were actually were well targeted. The timing of a message matters, not just the contents. There is noone in the public with a 2-3 years attention span that will anticipate our contract. When our turn comes up, and the press is following, we need to be clear and affective. The appointment of a new chairman would provide a good interim point to place a new message in the interim.
I didn't read his post as having anything to do with timing. It has to do with setting an appropriate direction for our pilot group and getting us focused on the objective. Don't confuse marketing with leadership. They can be interrelated but they are two different things. In another year or two, it might be the right time to start bringing our message to the public. (Marketing) But it's never too early to have a clearly stated objective and get everyone on board with it, pulling in the same direction. (Leadership)
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