Delta Pilots Association
10-31-2010, 03:57 PM
#2051
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
Originally Posted by NuGuy
....Here's another example of one of the ALPA defenders trying to ID a poster......
I agree. However, yesterday someone told me who Slow, Pineapple, and certain others are. You know what? I couldn't care less. It does not matter to me. I couldn't even repeat their name if my life depended on it.
I have a very strong feeling all of us are fighting for and believing the same things, we just have different believes on how to get there. Some of us call it like it is, some of us go in the history books and dig out bad stuff about an individual or organization, some of us believe so strong that we threaten each other with revealing who you are. Does it matter? No it does not. We live in a free country and we are all entitled to our opinions, regardless of who, what, or where we are.
Funny thing is that 99,9% of us wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy the other guy a beer on a layover, regardless of who you are....
OK, rant over, now back to how we can make DPA the best solution for the Delta Pilots, their families, and Delta itself...
Last edited by FlyingViking; 10-31-2010 at 04:50 PM.
10-31-2010, 03:57 PM
#2052
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Bar, you make a ton of great points over the last few pages.
WRT DAL's 1113C proceeding, at the end of the day, the pilots voted for it. Saying that one organization over the other would have done differently is 1) convenient, and 2) hearsay.
Pilots are stating that their "union" told them to vote this way. Well, yes they did. I say quit faulting your union, we all seem to have type "A" personalities when it suits us and portray little sheep being lead to slaughter when it doesn't. Think freely, and vote your conscience, not what someone tells you to do. Changing a name plaque will not change the way pilot group votes.
WRT DAL's 1113C proceeding, at the end of the day, the pilots voted for it. Saying that one organization over the other would have done differently is 1) convenient, and 2) hearsay.
Pilots are stating that their "union" told them to vote this way. Well, yes they did. I say quit faulting your union, we all seem to have type "A" personalities when it suits us and portray little sheep being lead to slaughter when it doesn't. Think freely, and vote your conscience, not what someone tells you to do. Changing a name plaque will not change the way pilot group votes.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Like many have wrote, before anything can really happen here, one must change the apathy here. Change that and whomever the association's name is, it will result in a better trend.
Carl
10-31-2010, 04:29 PM
#2053
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,398
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
What a silly characterization of reality. This could only be spoken by someone who wasn't involved at the time. The name plaque is a big deal when that same name plate uses extreme scare tactics against its members. Nobody was a sheep. ALPA issued a bunch of "facts" that we now know was mostly their "opinons." Those "facts" talked about going over the abyss. You were still flying RJ's lamenting about the loss of your longevity at Delta...the airline you weren't even hired at yet.
For the thousandth time, it's not apathy. It's the realization that ALPA refuses to change. Nobody has the time to waste trying to change an organization that will not change. There's certainly nothing apathetic about the drive to change from ALPA. If you weren't so hopelessly in love with ALPA no matter what, you could see this for yourself.
Carl
For the thousandth time, it's not apathy. It's the realization that ALPA refuses to change. Nobody has the time to waste trying to change an organization that will not change. There's certainly nothing apathetic about the drive to change from ALPA. If you weren't so hopelessly in love with ALPA no matter what, you could see this for yourself.
Carl
You used to be a sort of voice of reason, but you have some a dismissive, sneering tone towards anyone who doesn't share your sycophantic "ALPA:bad...DPA:good" viewpoint that I have a hard time taking you seriously.
I do have some serious issues with ALPA national, and I don't claim that DPA isn't a possible alternative. But I am willing to "agree to disagree." In your universe, it seems as if anyone who disagrees with you is either mixing the ALPA koolaid, or is just stupid.
10-31-2010, 04:39 PM
#2054
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
The Manager is exactly right when he states the politics of fear were used to coerce those who might have shouted the agreement down. Like him, I resent the misinformation which made our union appear weaker than it really is.
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
One component of "fear" is that most of the time we fear the unknown. The information disparity between ALPA and line guys is used to give the politicians the upper hand, but it detracts from true understanding of the issues which would allow the pilots to make informed decisions regarding their careers. The politics of fear fits right into the "trust us, we know what is best for you."
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
To get back on topic, I've read nothing what so ever that the DPA intends one iota of difference from ALPA in this regard. In fact, by parroting the politics of "conflicts of interest" they set the stage for exactly more of the same. The difference between them and ALPA, is ALPA was smart enough to know what it was doing & roll out the straw man.
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Like previous straw men, baseless threats have confused many line pilots and even some working within ALPA. They fail to understand the greatest tool available to our union and fail to appreciate it. The result is a weakened ALPA who's future is at risk from apathy and efforts like the DPA.
Carl
10-31-2010, 04:54 PM
#2055
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by FlyingViking
I agree. However, yesterday someone told me who Slow, Pineapple, and certain others are. You know what? I couldn't care less. It does not matter to me. I couldn't even repeat their name if my life dependet on it.
I have a very strong feeling all of us are fighting for and believing the same things, we just have different believes on how to get there. Some of us call it like it is, some of us go in the history books and dig out bad stuff about an individual or organization, some of us believe so strong that we threaten each other with revealing who you are. Does it matter? No it does not. We live in a free country and we are all entitled to our opinions, regardless of who, what, or where we are.
Funny thing is that 99,9% of us wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy the other guy a beer on a layover, regardless of who you are....
OK, rant over, now back to how we can make DPA the best solution for the Delta Pilots, their families, and Delta itself...
I have a very strong feeling all of us are fighting for and believing the same things, we just have different believes on how to get there. Some of us call it like it is, some of us go in the history books and dig out bad stuff about an individual or organization, some of us believe so strong that we threaten each other with revealing who you are. Does it matter? No it does not. We live in a free country and we are all entitled to our opinions, regardless of who, what, or where we are.
Funny thing is that 99,9% of us wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy the other guy a beer on a layover, regardless of who you are....
OK, rant over, now back to how we can make DPA the best solution for the Delta Pilots, their families, and Delta itself...
And again ATC, please don't let slowplay's actions stop you from posting. I'm sure he's through with the threats since the moderators are watching this closely.
Carl
10-31-2010, 04:57 PM
#2056
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
Carl,
You used to be a sort of voice of reason, but you have some a dismissive, sneering tone towards anyone who doesn't share your sycophantic "ALPA:bad...DPA:good" viewpoint that I have a hard time taking you seriously.
I do have some serious issues with ALPA national, and I don't claim that DPA isn't a possible alternative. But I am willing to "agree to disagree." In your universe, it seems as if anyone who disagrees with you is either mixing the ALPA koolaid, or is just stupid.
You used to be a sort of voice of reason, but you have some a dismissive, sneering tone towards anyone who doesn't share your sycophantic "ALPA:bad...DPA:good" viewpoint that I have a hard time taking you seriously.
I do have some serious issues with ALPA national, and I don't claim that DPA isn't a possible alternative. But I am willing to "agree to disagree." In your universe, it seems as if anyone who disagrees with you is either mixing the ALPA koolaid, or is just stupid.
With regard to you saying that I used to be a voice of reason, I don't recall you doing anything but disagreeing with anything I've ever said.
Carl
10-31-2010, 05:07 PM
#2057
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
(originally posted by TheManager)I never made any statements about the claim. You did. I will say nice job on DALPA's part, but they were almost too singularly focused on that.
The claim was compensation for the concessions. The concessions were for a 3.5 year period and were valued at $280m/year. The claim paid out over $1.2B in cash for those concessions and they paid out almost immediately after bankruptcy. I think I'd rather have the money up front then a snap back, particularly when it never snaps back.
On that note...be sure to give credit where it is due on the final pay out number. If it were not for Uncle Doug, the price of the notes would've been way less. It always leaves a nasty taste in my mouth when the folks that got us that # claim it was due to any other reason than that. Again, don't get me wrong, glad we got it, but don't stretch the truth with revisionist history
Then you ought to know that the value of the Note was always fixed at $650m. Had nothing to do with Doug Parker.
They left ALPA unfortunately to try and circumnavigate the Nicolau Award. Not working out as they left for the wrong reasons.
Let's ask SWAPA, UPS, et all how things are.
And despite working for companies that have been consistently profitable they've never matched the contracts ALPA produced with UAL and DAL. How's Kalitta, Miami Air, Horizon Air, Southern Air, ABX Air, Atlas Worldwide, Polar, Cape Air, Gulfstream Air, Omni Air, USA 3000, and US Airline Pilots Association (US Airways) doing?
Aren't Horizon, Cape Air and Gulfstreem commuter airlines? Conflict of interest? Don't some first officers at Gulfstream pay for the priviledge of flying for Gulfstream?
How about FDX and CAL, why did they come back?
Fact, If DAL does go independant, and DAL does join CAPA, they just became the largest pilot lobbying group in the US. How about ALPA PAC then?
DAL pilots are already part of the largest pilot lobbying group in the world, as well as the largest pilot union in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the co-chair of the ARC working on the new flight time/duty times is an ALPA pilot, not a CAPA pilot. There are 7 ALPA pilots on the ARC including the co-chairman, CAPA I believe only has 4 representatives who apparently only attend some of the meetings.
ALPA, it appears, provides services that CAPA can't match, why else would the APA approached ALPA for help with their negotiations. I've not heard of too many ALPA pilot groups asking CAPA for help with EF&A or other services. Does CAPA even do that, what about an MCF, do they have one?
The claim was compensation for the concessions. The concessions were for a 3.5 year period and were valued at $280m/year. The claim paid out over $1.2B in cash for those concessions and they paid out almost immediately after bankruptcy. I think I'd rather have the money up front then a snap back, particularly when it never snaps back.
On that note...be sure to give credit where it is due on the final pay out number. If it were not for Uncle Doug, the price of the notes would've been way less. It always leaves a nasty taste in my mouth when the folks that got us that # claim it was due to any other reason than that. Again, don't get me wrong, glad we got it, but don't stretch the truth with revisionist history
Then you ought to know that the value of the Note was always fixed at $650m. Had nothing to do with Doug Parker.
They left ALPA unfortunately to try and circumnavigate the Nicolau Award. Not working out as they left for the wrong reasons.
Let's ask SWAPA, UPS, et all how things are.
And despite working for companies that have been consistently profitable they've never matched the contracts ALPA produced with UAL and DAL. How's Kalitta, Miami Air, Horizon Air, Southern Air, ABX Air, Atlas Worldwide, Polar, Cape Air, Gulfstream Air, Omni Air, USA 3000, and US Airline Pilots Association (US Airways) doing?
Aren't Horizon, Cape Air and Gulfstreem commuter airlines? Conflict of interest? Don't some first officers at Gulfstream pay for the priviledge of flying for Gulfstream?
How about FDX and CAL, why did they come back?
Fact, If DAL does go independant, and DAL does join CAPA, they just became the largest pilot lobbying group in the US. How about ALPA PAC then?
DAL pilots are already part of the largest pilot lobbying group in the world, as well as the largest pilot union in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the co-chair of the ARC working on the new flight time/duty times is an ALPA pilot, not a CAPA pilot. There are 7 ALPA pilots on the ARC including the co-chairman, CAPA I believe only has 4 representatives who apparently only attend some of the meetings.
ALPA, it appears, provides services that CAPA can't match, why else would the APA approached ALPA for help with their negotiations. I've not heard of too many ALPA pilot groups asking CAPA for help with EF&A or other services. Does CAPA even do that, what about an MCF, do they have one?
Last edited by Reroute; 10-31-2010 at 05:31 PM.
10-31-2010, 05:38 PM
#2058
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Reroute
(originally posted by TheManager)I never made any statements about the claim. You did. I will say nice job on DALPA's part, but they were almost too singularly focused on that.
The claim was compensation for the concessions. The concessions were for a 3.5 year period and were valued at $280m/year. The claim paid out over $1.2B in cash for those concessions and they paid out almost immediately after bankruptcy. I think I'd rather have the money up front then a snap back, particularly when it never snaps back.
The claim was compensation for the concessions. The concessions were for a 3.5 year period and were valued at $280m/year. The claim paid out over $1.2B in cash for those concessions and they paid out almost immediately after bankruptcy. I think I'd rather have the money up front then a snap back, particularly when it never snaps back.
I'm grateful for the boost to help get my retirement back on track. But to paint it as a substitute for a snap back, making whole our overall compensation, I think is very inaccurate and misleading... in a similar way to how LM's latest letter was misleading.
10-31-2010, 05:44 PM
#2059
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Reroute
There are 7 ALPA pilots on the ARC including the co-chairman, CAPA I believe only has 4 representatives who apparently only attend some of the meetings.
There is an attempt to exclude CAPA from this process by scheduling meetings without notifying CAPA. It's sad, but this committee appears to only be interested in reps that agree to raising pilot hours from 8 per day to 10. If you don't want that, you'll have to fight hard to find out where the meetings are held. And then endure folks like you insinuating that CAPA doesn't care.
Originally Posted by Reroute
ALPA, it appears, provides services that CAPA can't match, why else would the APA approached ALPA for help with their negotiations.
That's because what you've posted is wrong. APA and ALPA have agreed to cooperate rather than compete. APA did not approach ALPA for help with their negotiations.
Originally Posted by Reroute
I've not heard of too many ALPA pilot groups asking CAPA for help with EF&A or other services. Does CAPA even do that, what about an MCF, do they have one?
That's because CAPA and ALPA are diametrically opposed on many issues. 1500 hour rule, fatigue reduction, etc.
Carl
10-31-2010, 05:45 PM
#2060
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
[deleted thread drift, which turned out to be the entire post]
Please get back to the discussion and stop posting about Private Messages and other such things. Don't try to identify anybody either or use their names. Thanks.
Please get back to the discussion and stop posting about Private Messages and other such things. Don't try to identify anybody either or use their names. Thanks.
Last edited by vagabond; 10-31-2010 at 05:52 PM. Reason: deleted thread drift
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