vagabond

Mod Note:

I have no dog in this fight, but am only concerned about your posting behavior on APC. This free and anonymous forum is provided to you as a place to debate issues of importance to you. Union issues are important. The premise of this thread is important. This is not a place for petty, personal nitpicking and any attempts to use anyone's real name or the use of hints/clues to identify anyone will be put down.

As I have said in many threads before, debate the point(s) if you have one and leave out the personal stuff. The rules of engagement here are simple, but if you cannot or will not abide by them, then please go somewhere else.

Have a Happy Halloween! Still waiting for someone to loan me a Captain's hat to go with my costume.

Sink r8

Thanks for posting that. I suspect that self-interest is at work here too, and tapping into anger definitely is the obvious (and only) thing DPA has to work with so far.

Tapping into anger works so well, because it helps everyone discount their personal failure to participate. Noone votes, noone shows up for meetings, and few trake the time event to fill out surveys about what they want. The APA answer, because they're already riding such a weak argument, is that it's ALPA stifling involvement, and controlling votes.

The truth, sadly, is that we have not proven that we're willing to step up to the plate. Our involvement rarely goes beyond complaining. It takes less energy to push through local resolutions than it takes to reform National, and it would take an extraordinarily focused group to make an independent, handicapped from the start, successful. Never mind one that is based on a poor premise, and run by unidentified people with questionable agendas other than taking power.

Right now, we don't even have people that go to meetings. Is it a surprise, then, that the people that so correctly reflect us seem rather... weak? I don't think the problem is that Wilson polling is ignored, as much as I think it's very accurate, and the results are scary.

Now, I just spoke to one of my reps, and I was disappointed by some of his answers. He spent too much time telling me how we can't get things done, and not enough time debating me how we will. I suppose weak participation begets weak leadership on occasion. On further reflection, I will not vote for him. I think he's too far gone. The problem is that the alternative looks even weaker, because he's promising a christmas card list of things he will do, that he has absolutely no means of implementing. So I will abstain on one of the three in my council. Luckily, the other two reps are capable. They'll have to help whichever is picked as third.

NuGuy

And yet one poster continually attempts this and gets away with it....

Nu

Bucking Bar

On the ALPA side there are Ziplines and Negotiator's notepads, as well as some documents that became public round about the time of LOA's 47 to 50.

On the management side, you would be looking for "First Day Orders" which outline the priorities the bankrupt party would like to see honored.

An excellent outline for investigation is contained with this story which parallels ours in many ways.

FRONTLINE: can you afford to retire?: watch the full program online | PBS

news + public affairs player: video

Jump 8 minutes into "Insured United's Bankruptcy" for a good review. You must watch until the 11:00 mark! That was the game plan.

I have it from three independent (former Senior Management) sources that bankruptcy was strategically planned for Delta as far back as 2001. Most on our level did not believe (and many still don't) that ours was a strategic bankruptcy. Perhaps not that ours could have been avoided, but Michelle and Leo plotted a course right into a predetermined outcome.

Hawaii50

Great Post. I'm still waiting to hear how an in-house union benefits Delta pilots but all I seem to hear is ALPA Blah, Blah, ALPA. I'm the typical mostly apethetic Delta pilot you describe and I feel bad about it but I sure as heck don't want people with sketchy personal agendas leading the pilot group. Why are so many of the posts from those who are obviously not Delta people?

Splash

No worries! DPA has a strategy to change bankruptcy laws to prevent the courts from stomping us in Ch 11.

If we're angry enough...get enough comm from our reps...and pay our staff less...the courts will order full restoration of our pay rates as a condition of Reorganization.

If that's not the DPA plan - then why isn't it?

TheManager

That Jives EXACTLY with the same information that was relayed to me on 2 occasions by the same sources that revealed the information to you.

Bucking Bar

How do you know my sources?

TheManager

Well, how about showing some more back bone during the process instead of just knelling down to take one in the head as the association did at DAL?

Other ALPA pilot groups were able to back bone up and assert themslves in the process with success.

You actually can go through bankruptcy without harboring a victim mentality and bemoan the inevitable "stomping" the courts courts are going to give you.

Splash

The problems with ALPA, and there are many, would not magically disappear with an in-house union. Even at it's strongest point, a union is still only one part of an equation that includes the company, the government, and sometimes, the courts.

The strongest point I've ever personally witnessed was the Northwest pilot strike in 1998. 100% of us were engaged, and there was very little apathy...yet we didn't get everything we expected when we started the negotiating process. The DPA can't change that, and you should shun any of their proponents who claim they can.