Delta Pilots Association
10-13-2010, 04:22 PM
#1081
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Whoa there sparky,
While AMR might have 2,000 on furlough, quite a bit of that was due to their disasterous TWA fiasco. Had everyone on MIL leave or voluntary furlough at DAL decided to come back, I seriously doubt we would have hired, either.
As for not upgrading anyone, I hate to mention it to you, but you need 14-16 years here at the combined DAL on ANY seat to even hold reserve on the DC-9/MD-88. I didn't see whole lot of DC-9/MD-88 activity other than reinstatements, and we still had a pile of people displaced from captain seats.
When all you have to do is take the train in DTW to see large RJs, ALL of which going to former mainline locations, while MD-90s are mysteriously hung up with little or no upgrade activity, and that angst at AMR is going to start to appear elsewhere.
Nu
While AMR might have 2,000 on furlough, quite a bit of that was due to their disasterous TWA fiasco. Had everyone on MIL leave or voluntary furlough at DAL decided to come back, I seriously doubt we would have hired, either.
As for not upgrading anyone, I hate to mention it to you, but you need 14-16 years here at the combined DAL on ANY seat to even hold reserve on the DC-9/MD-88. I didn't see whole lot of DC-9/MD-88 activity other than reinstatements, and we still had a pile of people displaced from captain seats.
When all you have to do is take the train in DTW to see large RJs, ALL of which going to former mainline locations, while MD-90s are mysteriously hung up with little or no upgrade activity, and that angst at AMR is going to start to appear elsewhere.
Nu
So ride your train in DTW all you want. It has nothing to do with the real problems they face at AMR within the APA. But, feel free to argue with yourself, Sparky, because I am not interested.
10-13-2010, 05:38 PM
#1084
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,871
Whoa there Sparky. You are so spring loaded to argue about everything you failed to notice that there is no comparison there. I said AMR has this problem, now go ask any first officer over at AMR if what I described is correct and you will spend the next three hours getting a complete history of the shrinkage and stagnation over there. That is the reality. The problem they face is how to become competitive in productivity while dealing with their stagnation and furlough.
So ride your train in DTW all you want. It has nothing to do with the real problems they face at AMR within the APA. But, feel free to argue with yourself, Sparky, because I am not interested.
So ride your train in DTW all you want. It has nothing to do with the real problems they face at AMR within the APA. But, feel free to argue with yourself, Sparky, because I am not interested.
And had you noticed the point I was making, you would see that you are correct...they ARE two different situations, but ended up with the same result...stagnation.
You say that AMR has to meet this challenge to be "productive", which, I assume in Alfaspeak, means concessions and the resultant loss of pay, scope and other work rules. Otherwise they will continue to languish in stagnation.
But look at our own situation. Our MEC Administration has either been praised or accused (depending on which side you are on) of philantropy towards management, and we are in exactly the same situation, except that the AMR pilots are in relative control of their flying, and the DAL pilots are not, to wit, the cold water shrinkage of the LAX base to Alaska, and loss of our narrowbody flying EVERYWHERE.
So what's in it for the AMR pilots? Loss of significant Pay, QoL and control over their flying, when they will most likely wind up in exactly the same situation?
How many new fleets/aircraft have we taken delivery of? Where are the synergies allowing the deployment of a new 100 seater? Additional widebodies? How many aircraft have we parked? How many parked airplanes have been replaced? How many pilot seats have been lost to DCI, Alaska and other code share ventures?
The thrust of your post was that the AMR pilots were getting angry because of lack of upgrades and 2000 furloughs. How many pilots have we upgraded since the merger versus those who have lost their seats?
Had all of our pilots, both NWA and DAL, who were out on voluntary furlough or Mil leave, decided to come back, how many would WE still have on furlough?
And how many pilots do we have versus the closing of the merger? More? Less? Or are we stagnant...just like AMR is? Has our "productive engagement" with management really improved the Pay or QoL of our pilots?
Nu
10-13-2010, 06:23 PM
#1085
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Heyas Sparks,
And had you noticed the point I was making, you would see that you are correct...they ARE two different situations, but ended up with the same result...stagnation.
You say that AMR has to meet this challenge to be "productive", which, I assume in Alfaspeak, means concessions and the resultant loss of pay, scope and other work rules. Otherwise they will continue to languish in stagnation.
But look at our own situation. Our MEC Administration has either been praised or accused (depending on which side you are on) of philantropy towards management, and we are in exactly the same situation, except that the AMR pilots are in relative control of their flying, and the DAL pilots are not, to wit, the cold water shrinkage of the LAX base to Alaska, and loss of our narrowbody flying EVERYWHERE.
So what's in it for the AMR pilots? Loss of significant Pay, QoL and control over their flying, when they will most likely wind up in exactly the same situation?
How many new fleets/aircraft have we taken delivery of? Where are the synergies allowing the deployment of a new 100 seater? Additional widebodies? How many aircraft have we parked? How many parked airplanes have been replaced? How many pilot seats have been lost to DCI, Alaska and other code share ventures?
The thrust of your post was that the AMR pilots were getting angry because of lack of upgrades and 2000 furloughs. How many pilots have we upgraded since the merger versus those who have lost their seats?
Had all of our pilots, both NWA and DAL, who were out on voluntary furlough or Mil leave, decided to come back, how many would WE still have on furlough?
And how many pilots do we have versus the closing of the merger? More? Less? Or are we stagnant...just like AMR is? Has our "productive engagement" with management really improved the Pay or QoL of our pilots?
Nu
And had you noticed the point I was making, you would see that you are correct...they ARE two different situations, but ended up with the same result...stagnation.
You say that AMR has to meet this challenge to be "productive", which, I assume in Alfaspeak, means concessions and the resultant loss of pay, scope and other work rules. Otherwise they will continue to languish in stagnation.
But look at our own situation. Our MEC Administration has either been praised or accused (depending on which side you are on) of philantropy towards management, and we are in exactly the same situation, except that the AMR pilots are in relative control of their flying, and the DAL pilots are not, to wit, the cold water shrinkage of the LAX base to Alaska, and loss of our narrowbody flying EVERYWHERE.
So what's in it for the AMR pilots? Loss of significant Pay, QoL and control over their flying, when they will most likely wind up in exactly the same situation?
How many new fleets/aircraft have we taken delivery of? Where are the synergies allowing the deployment of a new 100 seater? Additional widebodies? How many aircraft have we parked? How many parked airplanes have been replaced? How many pilot seats have been lost to DCI, Alaska and other code share ventures?
The thrust of your post was that the AMR pilots were getting angry because of lack of upgrades and 2000 furloughs. How many pilots have we upgraded since the merger versus those who have lost their seats?
Had all of our pilots, both NWA and DAL, who were out on voluntary furlough or Mil leave, decided to come back, how many would WE still have on furlough?
And how many pilots do we have versus the closing of the merger? More? Less? Or are we stagnant...just like AMR is? Has our "productive engagement" with management really improved the Pay or QoL of our pilots?
Nu
You missed it, but in 2007 Delta was growing, hiring pilots and many people were upgrading. I know the story was different at NWA but that was not our story. We were making money and PART of that was that we now had high productivity. So whine away about constructive engagement, but we went through bankruptcy, we dealt with our productivity problem and now we don't have to anymore. Close your eyes and try to wish the problem away, but it is a problem at AMR.
I hope I don't give away any closely guarded secrets, but we had a giant recession last year, which caused a lot of people to stop flying, Also, we had about 300 pilots flying freighters that were losing money at a prodigious rate. So yes we parked aircraft and lost flying from the freighters. How many pilots got furloughed? Yeah, none. So don't tell me that dealing with management produces no results. (oh wait, I know, it was the Compass flows that saved it all, yeah right)
So once again, you can crybaby all you want about how your life sucks as a first officer, but that doesn't make the problem go away at another airline that has nothing to do with us. This is a commodity industry now, and if you can't compete on productivity then you will get your butt kicked. How do I know? Because Delta will make a profit this year, we will get a fairly substantial profit sharing check, we will get a 4% raise and a 1% DC bump. AMR will lose a lot of money this year and APA will get bupkus and their pilot group will continue to shrink. Think that's a problem. No? Then just whine away, it's what you do best.
10-13-2010, 08:54 PM
#1088
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Lifted from HSLD's thread:
[quote]
Aviation industry tries to undercut key change
By JOAN LOWY
WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.
..............
Using a provision in the new law that allows the FAA to give prospective pilots some credit for flight school training, the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations.
..............
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
........... [quote]
Words cannot describe my anger at ALPA right now.
[quote]
Aviation industry tries to undercut key change
By JOAN LOWY
WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.
..............
Using a provision in the new law that allows the FAA to give prospective pilots some credit for flight school training, the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations.
..............
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
........... [quote]
Words cannot describe my anger at ALPA right now.
10-13-2010, 10:45 PM
#1089
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 757/767 Delta Air Lines
Posts: 22
NYR
10-14-2010, 05:16 AM
#1090
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Lil Bus A
Posts: 412
Furlough Bypass = 243
Mil Leave (A) = 13
Mil Leave (B) = 409
Total 243+13+409 = 665 Pilots
How many did we hire, oh yea 305......
Looks like lots of growth.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Lbell911
Regional
23
04-22-2012 10:33 AM
