Delta Pilots Association
10-28-2010, 11:46 AM
#1771
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by freightguy
Of course...can't say anything to the membership. After all ALPA is a 'super-secret' association. Who are you trying to fool slow? Here is what ALPA had to say about the 1500hr rule. This got my blood to the boiling point. ALPA is not only supporting reducing the 1500 requirement, they are doing it hand in hand with regional airline officials!
10-28-2010, 11:49 AM
#1772
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
ALPA does speak for me. I do not speak for ALPA, but in my opinion ALPA's right based on objective reasoning.
Captain Renslow had 3,379 hours and First Officer Shaw had 2,244 hours. Lets just get it out of the way up front that the proposed House Rule 5900 would have had no impact on preventing the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407.
If we were to adopt a 1,500 hour rule, we already know there would be exceptions for a very few schools' students. Captain Reslow got his time at Gulfstream, a pay for training outfit we all know well.
If a 1,500 hour requirement is imposed, who then staffs the airplanes? Where does a pilot get 1,500 hours? The story ends up back at aviation schools that most do not teach deep stall and spin recoveries for liability reasons, or who do most of their training in a box bolted to the ground. Since they will have a monopoly on the exception to the rule, they will charge their students a fortune.
General Aviation? Check Flying? Night Cargo? Most of these sources of time building have gone the way of $5.50 AvGas, $350,000 training aircraft and a non existent insurance market for complex aircraft used in training.
The market's answer to a 1,500 hour rule is likely to come in the form of cabotage and foreign nationals who can make an end run around our system. Our logbooks are still mostly on the honor system and several friends from Europe who are flying at 121 carriers today have confided in me they just made up their flight time when they immigrated. (they were senior to me by the way ... they hired in while I was still logging time)
The primary factor that contributed to the accident is the assumption regional airlines make that "safety is a given." Colgan's management blamed the Captain and the First Officer for showing to work fatigued and completely blew off the notion that a girl can't exactly live in the New York area for $16,000 a year.
The other factor is that somebody should have pulled the plug on Renslow with a 50% checkride passage rate. However, the airline had no motivation to do so. They needed cheap pilots and they got what they paid for.
I understand your concern and we all feel reducing the pilot supply might help us restore our profession. However the 1,500 hour requirement will not have that effect. Making an impossible requirement for entry will only result in some opportunistic folks working their way around the rule.
The FAA already has the authority to shut Colgan down. The FAA POI wrote Colgan was a reactive organization ... simply punitive when something went wrong ... (not) proactive. The place to start is effective regulation by the Administrator.
Captain Renslow had 3,379 hours and First Officer Shaw had 2,244 hours. Lets just get it out of the way up front that the proposed House Rule 5900 would have had no impact on preventing the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407.
If we were to adopt a 1,500 hour rule, we already know there would be exceptions for a very few schools' students. Captain Reslow got his time at Gulfstream, a pay for training outfit we all know well.
If a 1,500 hour requirement is imposed, who then staffs the airplanes? Where does a pilot get 1,500 hours? The story ends up back at aviation schools that most do not teach deep stall and spin recoveries for liability reasons, or who do most of their training in a box bolted to the ground. Since they will have a monopoly on the exception to the rule, they will charge their students a fortune.
General Aviation? Check Flying? Night Cargo? Most of these sources of time building have gone the way of $5.50 AvGas, $350,000 training aircraft and a non existent insurance market for complex aircraft used in training.
The market's answer to a 1,500 hour rule is likely to come in the form of cabotage and foreign nationals who can make an end run around our system. Our logbooks are still mostly on the honor system and several friends from Europe who are flying at 121 carriers today have confided in me they just made up their flight time when they immigrated. (they were senior to me by the way ... they hired in while I was still logging time)
The primary factor that contributed to the accident is the assumption regional airlines make that "safety is a given." Colgan's management blamed the Captain and the First Officer for showing to work fatigued and completely blew off the notion that a girl can't exactly live in the New York area for $16,000 a year.
The other factor is that somebody should have pulled the plug on Renslow with a 50% checkride passage rate. However, the airline had no motivation to do so. They needed cheap pilots and they got what they paid for.
I understand your concern and we all feel reducing the pilot supply might help us restore our profession. However the 1,500 hour requirement will not have that effect. Making an impossible requirement for entry will only result in some opportunistic folks working their way around the rule.
The FAA already has the authority to shut Colgan down. The FAA POI wrote Colgan was a reactive organization ... simply punitive when something went wrong ... (not) proactive. The place to start is effective regulation by the Administrator.
10-28-2010, 12:22 PM
#1773
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by satchip
This seems like one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't situations. I have supported and argued for an ATP minimum to occupy a part 121 seat from the get go. What you describe Bar, is a real possibility. Markets, like money, flow to where it's wanted. If the supply of domestic cheap pilot labor dried up with this law, what you say Bar could happen. What is a greater threat to our jobs, cheap entry level bottom feeder regions or MPL cruise pilots flying across the ocean thus negating the need for augmenting and reducing the crews required?
Satch;
All true - but again- isn't that where the union is supposed to step in and say "NO."
We are not the company executives here. I refuse to belong to an organization that is willing to sell my job just because it is a reasonable academic arguement.
10-28-2010, 12:24 PM
#1774
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,008
Originally Posted by freightguy
I disagree. The market's answer to the 1500 hr requirement will come as higher wages and QOL for the pilots to attract more experienced pilot to the industry. When supply goes down and demand goes up, wages increase in proportion to the demand. They definitely won't be able to get 1500 hr pilots to fly for $20,000 to $30,000 ranges at regionals thereby killing the regional industry.high Why do you think regional airlines are hell bent on reducing the required number of hours?
Also, what about ALPA members currently on furlough who have less than 1,500 hours?
The local flight school charges $140 for their cheapest Cessna. Of course an airline is going to want some multi time and maybe a little turbine experience. That's $300,000.
Just about every government program creates a moral hazard, since instead of doing what is "right," folks do what is "legal." This will be no difference. You and I might have played by the rules, but make the rules too hard and most will find a way around them. .. and if no one has noticed, the government is not enforcing the rules currently on the books effectively. Ask them.
ALPA (and you) want Congress to end the outsourcing monster that happened after ALPA and Management spent too many nights cuddling on the front porch with a bottle of wine. I'm with you, but using this accident for this purpose is not going to fix our problem. It could well make it worse.
10-28-2010, 12:47 PM
#1775
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Freight Guy, your heart is in the right place, but pragmatically, where would a person get 1,500 hours of experience if it takes 1,500 hours of experience to get the job?
Also, what about ALPA members currently on furlough who have less than 1,500 hours?
The local flight school charges $140 for their cheapest Cessna. Of course an airline is going to want some multi time and maybe a little turbine experience. That's $300,000.
Just about every government program creates a moral hazard, since instead of doing what is "right," folks do what is "legal." This will be no difference. You and I might have played by the rules, but make the rules too hard and most will find a way around them. .. and if no one has noticed, the government is not enforcing the rules currently on the books effectively. Ask them.
ALPA (and you) want Congress to end the outsourcing monster that happened after ALPA and Management spent too many nights cuddling on the front porch with a bottle of wine. I'm with you, but using this accident for this purpose is not going to fix our problem. It could well make it worse.
Also, what about ALPA members currently on furlough who have less than 1,500 hours?
The local flight school charges $140 for their cheapest Cessna. Of course an airline is going to want some multi time and maybe a little turbine experience. That's $300,000.
Just about every government program creates a moral hazard, since instead of doing what is "right," folks do what is "legal." This will be no difference. You and I might have played by the rules, but make the rules too hard and most will find a way around them. .. and if no one has noticed, the government is not enforcing the rules currently on the books effectively. Ask them.
ALPA (and you) want Congress to end the outsourcing monster that happened after ALPA and Management spent too many nights cuddling on the front porch with a bottle of wine. I'm with you, but using this accident for this purpose is not going to fix our problem. It could well make it worse.
1500hrs is no big deal, in 2.5 years I had 1300 hours of flight instruction given and I still got hired at mesaba when I was 21.
10-28-2010, 12:50 PM
#1776
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,008
Mesabah good point. The next explosive growth is going to be 90 to 140 (maybe 160) seats with another round of fleet renewal. Hopefully this 1500 hour argument will not be a player.
10-28-2010, 12:53 PM
#1777
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
ALPA does speak for me. I do not speak for ALPA, but in my opinion ALPA's right based on objective reasoning.
Captain Renslow had 3,379 hours and First Officer Shaw had 2,244 hours. Lets just get it out of the way up front that the proposed House Rule 5900 would have had no impact on preventing the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407.
If we were to adopt a 1,500 hour rule, we already know there would be exceptions for a very few schools' students. Captain Reslow got his time at Gulfstream, a pay for training outfit we all know well.
If a 1,500 hour requirement is imposed, who then staffs the airplanes? Where does a pilot get 1,500 hours? The story ends up back at aviation schools that most do not teach deep stall and spin recoveries for liability reasons, or who do most of their training in a box bolted to the ground. Since they will have a monopoly on the exception to the rule, they will charge their students a fortune.
General Aviation? Check Flying? Night Cargo? Most of these sources of time building have gone the way of $5.50 AvGas, $350,000 training aircraft and a non existent insurance market for complex aircraft used in training.
The market's answer to a 1,500 hour rule is likely to come in the form of cabotage and foreign nationals who can make an end run around our system. Our logbooks are still mostly on the honor system and several friends from Europe who are flying at 121 carriers today have confided in me they just made up their flight time when they immigrated. (they were senior to me by the way ... they hired in while I was still logging time)
The primary factor that contributed to the accident is the assumption regional airlines make that "safety is a given." Colgan's management blamed the Captain and the First Officer for showing to work fatigued and completely blew off the notion that a girl can't exactly live in the New York area for $16,000 a year.
The other factor is that somebody should have pulled the plug on Renslow with a 50% checkride passage rate. However, the airline had no motivation to do so. They needed cheap pilots and they got what they paid for.
I understand your concern and we all feel reducing the pilot supply might help us restore our profession. However the 1,500 hour requirement will not have that effect. Making an impossible requirement for entry will only result in some opportunistic folks working their way around the rule.
The FAA already has the authority to shut Colgan down. The FAA POI wrote Colgan was a reactive organization ... simply punitive when something went wrong ... (not) proactive. The place to start is effective regulation by the Administrator.
Captain Renslow had 3,379 hours and First Officer Shaw had 2,244 hours. Lets just get it out of the way up front that the proposed House Rule 5900 would have had no impact on preventing the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407.
If we were to adopt a 1,500 hour rule, we already know there would be exceptions for a very few schools' students. Captain Reslow got his time at Gulfstream, a pay for training outfit we all know well.
If a 1,500 hour requirement is imposed, who then staffs the airplanes? Where does a pilot get 1,500 hours? The story ends up back at aviation schools that most do not teach deep stall and spin recoveries for liability reasons, or who do most of their training in a box bolted to the ground. Since they will have a monopoly on the exception to the rule, they will charge their students a fortune.
General Aviation? Check Flying? Night Cargo? Most of these sources of time building have gone the way of $5.50 AvGas, $350,000 training aircraft and a non existent insurance market for complex aircraft used in training.
The market's answer to a 1,500 hour rule is likely to come in the form of cabotage and foreign nationals who can make an end run around our system. Our logbooks are still mostly on the honor system and several friends from Europe who are flying at 121 carriers today have confided in me they just made up their flight time when they immigrated. (they were senior to me by the way ... they hired in while I was still logging time)
The primary factor that contributed to the accident is the assumption regional airlines make that "safety is a given." Colgan's management blamed the Captain and the First Officer for showing to work fatigued and completely blew off the notion that a girl can't exactly live in the New York area for $16,000 a year.
The other factor is that somebody should have pulled the plug on Renslow with a 50% checkride passage rate. However, the airline had no motivation to do so. They needed cheap pilots and they got what they paid for.
I understand your concern and we all feel reducing the pilot supply might help us restore our profession. However the 1,500 hour requirement will not have that effect. Making an impossible requirement for entry will only result in some opportunistic folks working their way around the rule.
The FAA already has the authority to shut Colgan down. The FAA POI wrote Colgan was a reactive organization ... simply punitive when something went wrong ... (not) proactive. The place to start is effective regulation by the Administrator.
This is why I am for the 1500 hour rule. It's a significant barrier to entry and requires real world experience of some sort... I cannot see anyone arguing against that. Sure it may be checks or just CFIing, but it is command time.
10-28-2010, 01:05 PM
#1778
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Freight Guy, your heart is in the right place, but pragmatically, where would a person get 1,500 hours of experience if it takes 1,500 hours of experience to get the job?
Also, what about ALPA members currently on furlough who have less than 1,500 hours?
The local flight school charges $140 for their cheapest Cessna. Of course an airline is going to want some multi time and maybe a little turbine experience. That's $300,000.
Just about every government program creates a moral hazard, since instead of doing what is "right," folks do what is "legal." This will be no difference. You and I might have played by the rules, but make the rules too hard and most will find a way around them. .. and if no one has noticed, the government is not enforcing the rules currently on the books effectively. Ask them.
ALPA (and you) want Congress to end the outsourcing monster that happened after ALPA and Management spent too many nights cuddling on the front porch with a bottle of wine. I'm with you, but using this accident for this purpose is not going to fix our problem. It could well make it worse.
Also, what about ALPA members currently on furlough who have less than 1,500 hours?
The local flight school charges $140 for their cheapest Cessna. Of course an airline is going to want some multi time and maybe a little turbine experience. That's $300,000.
Just about every government program creates a moral hazard, since instead of doing what is "right," folks do what is "legal." This will be no difference. You and I might have played by the rules, but make the rules too hard and most will find a way around them. .. and if no one has noticed, the government is not enforcing the rules currently on the books effectively. Ask them.
ALPA (and you) want Congress to end the outsourcing monster that happened after ALPA and Management spent too many nights cuddling on the front porch with a bottle of wine. I'm with you, but using this accident for this purpose is not going to fix our problem. It could well make it worse.
Bar;
You are a bright guy. But, you will argue yourself out of a job.
"Pragmatically"... who cares. I say so what to the difficulty of accruing 1500 hours. If someone fudges their logbook, hopefully they will get caught in the training program.
I am with Clamp here for sure. 1500 hours means you are experienced enough to get an ATP. Then get your airline job. 500 hours is the level where you think you are bulletproof and you havent even really scared yourself yet.
10-28-2010, 01:09 PM
#1779
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Renslow and the FO would not have been hired in the first place as they didn't have anywhere close to 1500 hours... they had around 500 or 600 hours when they got hired. Renslow did the Gulfstream program with 250 hours in the Beech 1900 (which I DESPISE).
This is why I am for the 1500 hour rule. It's a significant barrier to entry and requires real world experience of some sort... I cannot see anyone arguing against that. Sure it may be checks or just CFIing, but it is command time.
This is why I am for the 1500 hour rule. It's a significant barrier to entry and requires real world experience of some sort... I cannot see anyone arguing against that. Sure it may be checks or just CFIing, but it is command time.
How many of the regular posters on this board started their first airline (121 or 135 in the day) gig with less than 1500 hours?
How many paid for training?
How many Guard/Reserve babies with only a couple years active duty?
How many graduated from an accredited University program (ND, PU, SIU, AU type), Embry Riddle, or CMR Academy?
Thanks!
10-28-2010, 01:14 PM
#1780
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by scambo1
-----------
Super;
I agree with everything you said, but the timing of everything right now (and I am not a crisis du jour guy) makes me wonder why we dont have the DPA front man running for MEC Chair. Hope and Change vs status quo.
I'm a Joe Lieberman moderate on this whole thing - or maybe I'm Missouri - Show Me.
Super;
I agree with everything you said, but the timing of everything right now (and I am not a crisis du jour guy) makes me wonder why we dont have the DPA front man running for MEC Chair. Hope and Change vs status quo.
I'm a Joe Lieberman moderate on this whole thing - or maybe I'm Missouri - Show Me.
Now that is a novel idea, a candidate backed by a party, not an idea backed up by a new organization.
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