Delta Pilots Association
10-29-2010, 03:07 PM
#1871
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Lil Bus A
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by capncrunch
The illusive pilot shortage....on par with Big Foot and Chupacabra. Mix that with a little "foreigners are going to take our jobs" and we have a nice scare tactic.
I found the Chupacabras......
Still looking for Big Foot, maybe after a few more Pale Ales.
10-29-2010, 03:20 PM
#1872
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Car Number 9
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Of course, no one will argue that 9 hrs is less fatiguing than 8. However, ALPA's proposal, taken as a whole, does much to reduce fatigue. I see CAPA taking the APA route -> grandstand, pound their chest, and then when none of their inputs are taken, cry.
ALPA, on the other hand, uses science to craft an overall proposal that, in total, reduces the fatigue significantly. They work quietly behind the scenes to actually have an impact on the final outcome. Pilots are awarded with a much improved, though not perfect, solution to the age old problem of fatigue.
ALPA, on the other hand, uses science to craft an overall proposal that, in total, reduces the fatigue significantly. They work quietly behind the scenes to actually have an impact on the final outcome. Pilots are awarded with a much improved, though not perfect, solution to the age old problem of fatigue.
10-29-2010, 03:27 PM
#1873
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Of course, no one will argue that 9 hrs is less fatiguing than 8. However, ALPA's proposal, taken as a whole, does much to reduce fatigue. I see CAPA taking the APA route -> grandstand, pound their chest, and then when none of their inputs are taken, cry.
ALPA, on the other hand, uses science to craft an overall proposal that, in total, reduces the fatigue significantly. They work quietly behind the scenes to actually have an impact on the final outcome. Pilots are awarded with a much improved, though not perfect, solution to the age old problem of fatigue.
ALPA, on the other hand, uses science to craft an overall proposal that, in total, reduces the fatigue significantly. They work quietly behind the scenes to actually have an impact on the final outcome. Pilots are awarded with a much improved, though not perfect, solution to the age old problem of fatigue.
You have to take a stand for the intent of the rules. It is to reduce fatigue, not cave to outside interest or use it as a horse trade. These issues are some of the most important to come along in some time. They will have a huge impact on all our careers. ALPA won't even stand up for what is right in the rule making process. How can we expect them to fight a real fight. Oh wait, we can't. That was already proven after 9-11. You can't defend the indefensible.
10-29-2010, 03:29 PM
#1874
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
And the DAL guy is now going to be in charge of ALPA. I do not think that LM will endorse a given White House incumbent if they do not start playing fair. He will also make a stink about it. Fact is that labor can really mess with the next presidential election cycle. The point is that La Hood and his boss better be careful about picking favorites, because it will come back and bite em.
10-29-2010, 03:47 PM
#1876
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by DAWGS
You call it pounding your chest, I call it representing CAPA's constituents. And what science? Show me a study that supports your argument. 1 study to support raising the ft to 9 hours as ALPA proposed. You just said yourself 9 hours is more fatiguing than 8.
Originally Posted by DAWGS
You have to take a stand for the intent of the rules. It is to reduce fatigue, not cave to outside interest or use it as a horse trade. These issues are some of the most important to come along in some time. They will have a huge impact on all our careers. ALPA won't even stand up for what is right in the rule making process. How can we expect them to fight a real fight. Oh wait, we can't. That was already proven after 9-11. You can't defend the indefensible.
I know in forumworld, we all get exactly what we want because we are pilots and we know it all, and if our leader just had the cajones to go to jail, blah, blah, blah... but in the real world, other entities get a vote. We can either work to craft a solution, or stand on the sidelines and shout our concerns, while being ignored because we take an all or nothing stand.
10-29-2010, 03:51 PM
#1877
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Why don't you try reading what I posted again, before cherry picking.
Do you support our current rules or what ALPA proposed? Simple question. One or the other.
I know in forumworld, we all get exactly what we want because we are pilots and we know it all, and if our leader just had the cajones to go to jail, blah, blah, blah... but in the real world, other entities get a vote. We can either work to craft a solution, or stand on the sidelines and shout our concerns, while being ignored because we take an all or nothing stand.
Do you support our current rules or what ALPA proposed? Simple question. One or the other.
I know in forumworld, we all get exactly what we want because we are pilots and we know it all, and if our leader just had the cajones to go to jail, blah, blah, blah... but in the real world, other entities get a vote. We can either work to craft a solution, or stand on the sidelines and shout our concerns, while being ignored because we take an all or nothing stand.
While much of what you say is true... there is NO compromise on safety. Wasn't that once ALPA's mantra? Whatever happened to that? This kind of bill cannot be viewed "as a whole" But.. in that vein, it might be an OK thing.. except, that flying 9 hours is not safe... Period. Therefore, the entire thing fails. Sorry.. you lose on this. OR rather we lose if it passes.... It is shameful. ALPA is now negotiating safety.
10-29-2010, 04:21 PM
#1879
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by slowplay
Just curious, is this an admission that CAPA hasn't been very effective in the ARC process, as they're unable to participate in a timely manner?
No Slowplay, its nothing more than what it is...the fact that the management groups and ALPA have been working on a reduced hours proposal and tried on several occasions to call meetings at the last minute, hoping that the ARC members opposed to the watered down proposal would not be able to attend to argue on the record against it.
How did CAPA handle the age 65 rule, the one where SWAPA wanted a change and APA didn't?
Don't know, wasn't there. I can find out. The difference between CAPA and ALPA, since that appears to be your question, is that if there is a difference of opinion, they decide how to handle it...as opposed to cooking a bunch of polling questions and staking a position that many ALPA members opposed, but the union went along with.
Isn't USAPA threatening to pull out of CAPA over the last election's politics?
To my knowledge, no. There was disappointment over the vote...again, as I understand it. If your hope is that as a result of a disagreement, USAPA will come back to ALPA to cover the upcoming financial hits from the lawsuits and fill the coffers? I wouldn't say that's a sound bet.
As to your Teamsters, have you guys found Hoffa yet?
You've asked that before. Pretty unprofessional, don't you think?
No different than asking if you found what Prater was "taking back" besides the empty Scotch bottles and fine cigar wrappers? Or maybe if you've found the receipts for the hooker flown out from DTW to the 06' BOD to "help" get votes for Prater. Done by a certain regional MEC chairman? How about you stop heading down that rabbit hole? You never know what someone might find...
As far as IBT? His son runs it, and has done a pretty decent job of cleaning up the mess from the people who came after his dad.
How many other properties have you raided (against your organizations agreement)?
Let's see...there's Horizon...oops, you guys are trying to raid them...again.
There's ATI...when the Airline Division refused to sign a concessionary agreement that would allow their holding company to whipsaw jobs and further attack pilot wages at ANY union carrier, Prater came dancing in and said, "come to ALPA and I'll sign the deal." He did just that. And the jobs and airplanes ATI was promised if they decerted and signed the deal? They stayed at ABX.
I can only assume you are once again running on Bruce York's and Representations recitatioins of events under the old Airline Division that was replaced over 2 years ago. I don't believe you can cite a single case, post 2007.
And if you are referring to Atlas? The Atlas pilots began the decert on their own. Why? Because Prater refused to protect their contractual rights and lied openly to their MEC and negotiating Committee in 2007, when he promised to conclude the merger. Sadly in May 2008 at the Exec Board, Prater and the Board were told yet again what was needed to stop the decert. They chose to do just the opposite. Including a phone call from Prater demanding an illegal job action...and yes, please ask...it's on tape.
What's it like working under a staff run, member supported organization, especially one that's in receivership? I'm sure all your Atlas pilots knew what a "business agent" was when they signed on! ;-)
Truth be told? Pretty good. A "business agent" is their term for a "contract administrator." And given what they have just negotiated in the new, joint contract? I'm guessing you've never seen a pay increase like they are getting. Or a bonus like what they are getting.
BTW...how much in profit sharing did you get last year? Atlas pilots got 12.5% of their gross salary....in some cases, over $35,000.00. Most F/O's averaged $15,000.00.
Seems like ACL isn't the only one leaving out the whole story...!
No Slowplay, its nothing more than what it is...the fact that the management groups and ALPA have been working on a reduced hours proposal and tried on several occasions to call meetings at the last minute, hoping that the ARC members opposed to the watered down proposal would not be able to attend to argue on the record against it.
How did CAPA handle the age 65 rule, the one where SWAPA wanted a change and APA didn't?
Don't know, wasn't there. I can find out. The difference between CAPA and ALPA, since that appears to be your question, is that if there is a difference of opinion, they decide how to handle it...as opposed to cooking a bunch of polling questions and staking a position that many ALPA members opposed, but the union went along with.
Isn't USAPA threatening to pull out of CAPA over the last election's politics?
To my knowledge, no. There was disappointment over the vote...again, as I understand it. If your hope is that as a result of a disagreement, USAPA will come back to ALPA to cover the upcoming financial hits from the lawsuits and fill the coffers? I wouldn't say that's a sound bet.
As to your Teamsters, have you guys found Hoffa yet?
You've asked that before. Pretty unprofessional, don't you think?
No different than asking if you found what Prater was "taking back" besides the empty Scotch bottles and fine cigar wrappers? Or maybe if you've found the receipts for the hooker flown out from DTW to the 06' BOD to "help" get votes for Prater. Done by a certain regional MEC chairman? How about you stop heading down that rabbit hole? You never know what someone might find...
As far as IBT? His son runs it, and has done a pretty decent job of cleaning up the mess from the people who came after his dad.
How many other properties have you raided (against your organizations agreement)?
Let's see...there's Horizon...oops, you guys are trying to raid them...again.
There's ATI...when the Airline Division refused to sign a concessionary agreement that would allow their holding company to whipsaw jobs and further attack pilot wages at ANY union carrier, Prater came dancing in and said, "come to ALPA and I'll sign the deal." He did just that. And the jobs and airplanes ATI was promised if they decerted and signed the deal? They stayed at ABX.
I can only assume you are once again running on Bruce York's and Representations recitatioins of events under the old Airline Division that was replaced over 2 years ago. I don't believe you can cite a single case, post 2007.
And if you are referring to Atlas? The Atlas pilots began the decert on their own. Why? Because Prater refused to protect their contractual rights and lied openly to their MEC and negotiating Committee in 2007, when he promised to conclude the merger. Sadly in May 2008 at the Exec Board, Prater and the Board were told yet again what was needed to stop the decert. They chose to do just the opposite. Including a phone call from Prater demanding an illegal job action...and yes, please ask...it's on tape.
What's it like working under a staff run, member supported organization, especially one that's in receivership?
I'm sure all your Atlas pilots knew what a "business agent" was when they signed on! ;-)Truth be told? Pretty good. A "business agent" is their term for a "contract administrator." And given what they have just negotiated in the new, joint contract? I'm guessing you've never seen a pay increase like they are getting. Or a bonus like what they are getting.
BTW...how much in profit sharing did you get last year? Atlas pilots got 12.5% of their gross salary....in some cases, over $35,000.00. Most F/O's averaged $15,000.00.
Seems like ACL isn't the only one leaving out the whole story...!
It's just a shame you have to stoop to the level you did and now have to explain why the IBT got them a contract and ALPA could not. And in a terrible economic time, got them continued profit sharing at 12.5%, substantial pay increases and other contract gains. Things that would have been even higher had they been done in better economic times...but ALPA refused to do so.
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Last edited by vagabond; 10-29-2010 at 07:38 PM.
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