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11-01-2010 | 04:02 AM

#2121

scambo1

The Brown Dot +1

Joined: Jun 2009

Posts: 7,775

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From: 777B

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Carl;
It better be a grand slam because if one or the other do not de-certify, as you suggest, the outcome, and effect will not be good for any of us.

How's it different from today?

"Takin' it back!"

ALPA mantra for several years, but PG asks 88 why the APA wasn't succesful?

Huh? Does anyone just believe the truth is always the truth?

11-01-2010 | 06:17 AM

#2122

acl65pilot

Happy to be here

Joined: Jun 2006

Posts: 18,563

Likes: 0

From: A-320A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Carl,

Just because a "large portion of our pilots" believe something to be true does not make it "fact."

There is no conflict of interest. If there is a conflict, where's the evidence?
- No ALPA President has refused to sign a Delta contract
- ALPA litigated with the Ford/Cooksey group to protect the exclusivity of mainline bargaining
- No regional pilots have ever sat down at the table to negotiate anything regarding "Delta" flying

The DPA lost me when they bought in on the petty politics of divisiveness. When a union talks "unity" then they get it. The DPA will have a problem talking unity since it is a separatist movement. Eventually DPA is going to have to develop a platform stating what it supports. Frustration with ALPA will only push this thing uphill for so long.

The way I see it, the DPA's only chance is as an alternative to an MEC Officer election if the line pilots' opinions are greatly different from the choices made by their Reps.

Thanks for bringing another perspective to the board and being respectful in our debate.

Great points Bar, I have said em before and they fell of deaf ears, or unfocused eyes.

11-01-2010 | 06:22 AM

#2123

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 12,487

Likes: 0

From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Carl,

There is no conflict of interest. If there is a conflict, where's the evidence?
- No ALPA President has refused to sign a Delta contract
- ALPA litigated with the Ford/Cooksey group to protect the exclusivity of mainline bargaining
- No regional pilots have ever sat down at the table to negotiate anything regarding "Delta" flying

None of these points have anything to do with a conflict of interest. The conflict is present due to the dual representation structure we now have. As we attempt to regain the flying that we sold (I hope), we will be taking jobs from the regionals that ALPA also represents. That is the very definition of a conflict of interest. If this same scenario was happening within a legal firm, that firm would recuse itself due to the obvious conflict.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

The DPA lost me when they bought in on the petty politics of divisiveness.

How did they do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

The DPA will have a problem talking unity since it is a separatist movement.

Sounds like you're setting up a circular argument so that they cannot succeed in your eyes. On the one hand you correctly point out important unity is. On the other hand you say that unity is impossible for DPA because it is a separatist movement. Are you saying that the only way to have unity is to ensure we stay with ALPA and reject any movement for change?

Carl

11-01-2010 | 06:23 AM

#2124

acl65pilot

Happy to be here

Joined: Jun 2006

Posts: 18,563

Likes: 0

From: A-320A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

You've shown me nothing thus far but fear of risk, fear of change and total devotion to ALPA.

I assume no such thing. I don't assume that the best and brightest among Delta pilots only reside currently within DALPA. It's pretty shallow that you do. We have many extremely bright people that don't want any part of the bloated shame that is ALPA national.

Carl

Carl, It stands to reason that if they have opted out of union work thus far they will continue to do so with a new association. You might get them for one lap around the track at best, but the other "bright" ones have opted for side businesses.

Maybe you have come to your conclusions of ALPA but many have not, and it is a shame that guys that want to get involved with ALPA are second guessing themselves' because of your rant on ALPA. Many do not understand the facts and benefits of ALPA. Needless to say I have been getting tons of phone calls to ask me why I am pro ALPA when most assumed I would be the opposite. I am happy to say that many cards have not gone in after the talks I have had with pilots I do not even know.

This brings me back to the point that, yep, ALPA needs to sell itself better to the pilots. When you are only remembered for the negative times, it is hard for anyone to have a decent opinion of ya.

11-01-2010 | 06:26 AM

#2125

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 12,487

Likes: 0

From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by scambo1

How's it different from today?

"Takin' it back!"

ALPA mantra for several years, but PG asks 88 why the APA wasn't succesful?

Huh? Does anyone just believe the truth is always the truth?

I think the answer to that is No. Some folks do not like absolutes. They prefer an existence of gray areas so that there is maximum maneuverability. Others do see some absolute truths in life. I think it explains a lot of the conflict here.

Carl

11-01-2010 | 06:30 AM

#2126

acl65pilot

Happy to be here

Joined: Jun 2006

Posts: 18,563

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From: A-320A

Carl;
ALPA National does not do our bidding to Delta Air Lines, who owns and creates the flying, DALPA does. ALPA National represents us on the broader scale. I know you know this.

11-01-2010 | 06:39 AM

#2127

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 12,487

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Carl, It stands to reason that if they have opted out of union work thus far they will continue to do so with a new association.

It only stands to reason if you don't allow for any other options except your own conclusion. I just got through saying that many bright people have opted out of ALPA work when they see what ALPA national really is. In my view, it is a bloated self serving bureaucracy interested only in its own growth and survival. Many others share that view and opt out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Maybe you have come to your conclusions of ALPA but many have not,

That is why we have elections. Your efforts are all about scare tactics and disinformation in order to stop those elections. I look forward to them. I don't know who will win, but I look forward to them nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

and it is a shame that guys that want to get involved with ALPA are second guessing themselves' because of you.

People are second guessing ALPA because of ALPA's own actions...not my statements on APC.

It is a shame that you use your position as APC's rumor monger to sway people to your side through posting opinion stated as fact. Of all the ALPA apologists here on APC, you are the most panic stricken about the pilots stating their views through the legal process of a union decertification vote.

Carl

11-01-2010 | 06:58 AM

#2128

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 12,487

Likes: 0

From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Carl;
ALPA National does not do our bidding to Delta Air Lines, who owns and creates the flying, DALPA does. ALPA National represents us on the broader scale. I know you know this.

You know better than that. DALPA gets no dues money for operations...it all comes from ALPA national giving us back ~30 cents on our dues dollars. All the legal representation and economic analysis, etc comes from ALPA national...not DALPA.

DALPA does represent Delta pilots, but ALPA carries huge national sway over all its local divisions. But I know you know that.

Carl

11-01-2010 | 07:37 AM

#2129

Hawaii50

Line Holder

Joined: Jul 2008

Posts: 1,325

Likes: 9

From: 3fidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by NuGuy

Heyas,

The absolute hilarity in all of this is: Has anyone heard ANYTHING from the DPA?

Anything at all?

An email?
A phone call?
A snail mail letter?
Something in their mailbox at work?
A personal contact?

All this frothing at the mouth over a group, as far as I can tell, that has done nothing, proposed nothing, as published no commentary from their leadership or organizers, and has had no public activity other than a simple website with rather abstract objectives.

So what, may I ask, is all the bother about?

And yet with this absolute minimal of information, we find people in hysterics, with the battle lines drawn.

#2100 posts, and not a single entry by any DPA organizer forwarding a plan or agenda. For the status quo folks, it must be like fighting a ghost.

Nu

You're right. I'm on the ER and haven't flown with anyone yet who even knows what it is. I don't see any hysterics though. I see a few guys, some obviously from other airlines, in a feverish back and forth. That's about it.

11-01-2010 | 08:40 AM

#2130

acl65pilot

Happy to be here

Joined: Jun 2006

Posts: 18,563

Likes: 0

From: A-320A

Far from panic stricken Carl. I just think that it is crazy to sit there and blame alpa for our woes without looking around us at the industry over the last ten years, or own voting record.

Getting rid of a "conflict" that even by your own words we created, seems like leaving without finishing the job. Sorry if quitting is not in my genetic makeup.