Delta Pilots Association
11-14-2010, 12:23 PM
#2531
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Man isn't that the truth! Think about what you said for a minute. Think about a strategy that never says a word about restoration and acts like everything is basically going well for us... you know, the LM proactive engagement strategy. What kind of "expectations" has that formed over time? 
When we participated in such "proactive engagement", was mgt. under any obligation to "engage" the pilots?
How do you know that the tactics would be the same once we are in Section 6?
Everything I've ever seen written or heard from DALPA elected representatives made it very clear that where our interested diverged (pilots v. management), that: "....when our fortunes are not aligned, we stand ready, willing and able to fight fiercely...." That doesn't sound very coddling and nicey-nice at all.
11-14-2010, 12:25 PM
#2532
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
All,
As I read the ongoing debate over the merits or lack thereof of DPA, one point really keeps bothering me:
Who are going to be the legions of Reps, Officers, Committee Chairs and volunteers, staff, etc., etc. that now represents hundreds of volunteers just at DALPA, never mind having to pick up the functions that would have to be duplicated from National?
Don't count on any current volunteers - every Rep (past and present) and volunteer I have spoken too has stated unequivocally they do not support DPA and would not even consider volunteering there should there be a switch in representation.
It is certainly legal and within ones right (other than using ALPA assets to do so) to advocate for another bargaining agent, so there is nothing to fear in publicly declaring ones intent to run for a position. Right now I can identify no more than 3 principals in DPA. Where is everyone else and who is going to do the work, giving up much of their personal free time to do so?
I find it inconceivable that anyone would even consider replacing ALPA without knowing exactly who and what is going to actually represent them. I don't expect anyone to name themselves here, but perhaps they will start naming candidates on their web site willing to stand up and volunteer for all the various positions so we can judge the caliber and expertise of those who are proposing to replace ALPA.
Where are the meetings scheduled so that pilots can meet their potential DPA candidates? Saying you are mad as hell and kicking the table over is easy. Getting a seat back at the table and doing the actual the work is not. My experience is those who criticize the most vocally are usually the last to volunteer to effect meaningful change, so I'm counting out most of those I see posting here.
"Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself"
As I read the ongoing debate over the merits or lack thereof of DPA, one point really keeps bothering me:
Who are going to be the legions of Reps, Officers, Committee Chairs and volunteers, staff, etc., etc. that now represents hundreds of volunteers just at DALPA, never mind having to pick up the functions that would have to be duplicated from National?
Don't count on any current volunteers - every Rep (past and present) and volunteer I have spoken too has stated unequivocally they do not support DPA and would not even consider volunteering there should there be a switch in representation.
It is certainly legal and within ones right (other than using ALPA assets to do so) to advocate for another bargaining agent, so there is nothing to fear in publicly declaring ones intent to run for a position. Right now I can identify no more than 3 principals in DPA. Where is everyone else and who is going to do the work, giving up much of their personal free time to do so?
I find it inconceivable that anyone would even consider replacing ALPA without knowing exactly who and what is going to actually represent them. I don't expect anyone to name themselves here, but perhaps they will start naming candidates on their web site willing to stand up and volunteer for all the various positions so we can judge the caliber and expertise of those who are proposing to replace ALPA.
Where are the meetings scheduled so that pilots can meet their potential DPA candidates? Saying you are mad as hell and kicking the table over is easy. Getting a seat back at the table and doing the actual the work is not. My experience is those who criticize the most vocally are usually the last to volunteer to effect meaningful change, so I'm counting out most of those I see posting here.
"Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself"
Carl
11-14-2010, 12:29 PM
#2533
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I would not worry to much about DPA. I have not even seen a card to send in. They don't seem well organized. The entire infrastructure that would have be to be rebuilt is beyond huge.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I suspect dues would have to be in the 3 to 5 percent range to get things up and running and provide anything near what ALPA currently provides.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I know a large number of USAIR pilots. To a man they suppported USAPA. To a man they now admit it was the biggest mistake they have made.
Carl
11-14-2010, 12:31 PM
#2534
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by shiznit
We still have zero proof that anyone has turned in a card. No source has been mentioned that will allow anyone to CONFIRM with the NMB how many cards have been actually submitted.
I'm waiting for the poster (or anyone else who believes that) "25% of Delta Pilots have been sent in a card" to show the way John Q. Public finds out how to access the numbers of cards sent in to the NMB to petition for a representational election.
It seems more like a statement meant to over-inflate the pro-DPA sentiment among the pilots of Delta Air Lines. I want proof.
I'm waiting for the poster (or anyone else who believes that) "25% of Delta Pilots have been sent in a card" to show the way John Q. Public finds out how to access the numbers of cards sent in to the NMB to petition for a representational election.
It seems more like a statement meant to over-inflate the pro-DPA sentiment among the pilots of Delta Air Lines. I want proof.
Seriously though, if I remember correctly from when I sent mine in, it was sent to DPA. I haven't seen any published statistics as to how many cards have been received to date. Maybe this poster has spoken with someone at DPA that told him the 25% number? In any case, I would suggest giving people the benefit of the doubt before accusing them of lying. (Unless, of course, you have proof.)
11-14-2010, 12:35 PM
#2535
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
The policy manual can and will be changed if that is the consensus of the reps. Ergo, put your guys in there to get the policy manual changed. It is a tried and true process. If it is not changing with pilots you have elected, ask them why they have a change of heart.
Carl
11-14-2010, 12:43 PM
#2536
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Yes. You will be giving up fighting your own union to do what they are supposed to do. You will be giving up watching 70 cents on every union dues dollar going to represent pilots that fly our sold flying.
2. Flying that legacy pilots in the 90's relenquished for contract improvements in other areas. (The "$.70 of very dollar" valuation has yet to be convincingly proven, I'd like to see the numbers if available.)
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
You discredit it acl. All you ever use is weasel words like "I have issues", and "some changes in a few areas". When it comes to details, you are lock step with ALPA/DALPA. You continually lower everyone's expectations on our upcoming contract negotiations, and excuse even the most egregious behaviors of ALPA.
Still haven't seen where people who want to keep ALPA think that Delta Pilots deserve less than restoration and where they say they will not fight for full restoration. Have not seen where "egregious behaviors" are excused. Can you provide examples?
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Spoken like someone terrified of change. Thumb sucking in the corner will not get the change we all need acl.
Carl
Carl
Your comments lacks factual basis and decorum.
11-14-2010, 12:43 PM
#2537
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Their [USAir East pilots] bitterness against ALPA is extremely strong. In fact, I haven't seen that level of hatred against ALPA since the pilots of Eastern Airlines.
Carl
Carl
Sad, because these little battles against ALPA national do nothing but harm MY ability to get a truly restorative contract.
A little history lesson for you: ALPA National told the EAL pilots to get their butts back in the seats after Bush refused to permit the Blue Ribbon Commission regarding maintenance fraud, effectively killing any chance of a successful strike. The locals refused, thinking they knew best. The rest is history.
Snap forward to USAPA. ALPA National stated binding arbitration was binding, and there was nothing illegal or fraudulent about the arbitrator's decision. Maybe it was fair, maybe not; as fairness is always in the eye of the beholder. But there was nothing that could/should be done about it. Now, the Easties are forever mired in a no-win, no-contract, bottom of the industry situation that will never change, because management LOVES a split group, and knows this can drag on virtually forever.
Gee, does that sound familiar?
11-14-2010, 12:44 PM
#2538
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
Don't count on any current volunteers - every Rep (past and present) and volunteer I have spoken too has stated unequivocally they do not support DPA and would not even consider volunteering there should there be a switch in representation.
I believe that many current reps owe their allegiance to this pilot group...not ALPA. If there are any reps that harbor the feeling that you allege, I cannot wait for them to be ousted.
There are a great many former reps and volunteers that resigned due to ALPA's horrible bureaucracy. I believe a lot of those reps and volunteers (me included) would gladly come back to serve an organization dedicated to just the pilots of Delta Air Lines.
Carl
11-14-2010, 12:47 PM
#2539
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I'm going to probably surprise you a little, shiznit, and basically agree with you on this point. I did send in a card... not because I'm prepared to absolutely vote DPA in at this moment, but because all the card does is allow a vote to be taken. I too would want to know that everything is "fully functional" before pulling the trigger on the changeover. But I want a heck of a lot more than "fully functional"! I want an association that is clearly advocating restoration. What I absolutely do NOT want is an association that makes every excuse in the book why that supposedly cannot happen... an association that continually tries to manage our expectations downward. All I'm looking for is someone to fight for us, not concede defeat and try to make the best of it. If DPA will do that, I'll vote for them. I want them to be fully functional (and they will have to address that), but that is only one part of the big picture here... and not the most important part IMO either.
Yes! This!
Carl
11-14-2010, 12:50 PM
#2540
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
25% is over 3,000 pilots. Sounds to me like a little more than just a few "forum radicals." 
Carl
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