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11-14-2010 | 12:52 PM

#2541

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

And of those 25% how many will never vote for them? Probably a lot.

Yeah you're probably right.

Insert thumb in mouth and remain in corner acl.

Carl

11-14-2010 | 12:54 PM

#2542

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Wanting something and advocating/pursuing it are not necessarily the same thing. Of course all of us want restoration. The real question is whether our current reps believe it is attainable and have set it as their objective. From everything I've heard and read... for most of them, I would say the answer is no. I would say that most of them have settled for something well short of that. If this is incorrect, then they need to start communicating it ASAP because I'm definitely not the only one who has this impression.

This is EXACTLY my impression as well.

Carl

11-14-2010 | 12:55 PM

#2543

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined: Mar 2009

Posts: 2,874

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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit

Didn't the "proactive engagement" occur outside of Section 6 negotiations?

When we participated in such "proactive engagement", was mgt. under any obligation to "engage" the pilots?

IMO, moral obligation - yes. Legal obligation - no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit

How do you know that the tactics would be the same once we are in Section 6?

Hopefully they would not. But let me ask you this. Which "tactic" is more effect? 1) Setting a clear objective, making sure everything you do and say is oriented around that objective, and carrying that consistency into negotiations. or 2) Making your objective seem nebulous... maybe even like something completely different than what it actually is... and then suddenly, completely changing your objective when you actually get into negotiations?

I guess if you say expectations do not matter, then maybe you're okay with the latter. IMO, that is very poor strategic planning. I think most business experts would agree with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit

Everything I've ever seen written or heard from DALPA elected representatives made it very clear that where our interested diverged (pilots v. management), that: "....when our fortunes are not aligned, we stand ready, willing and able to fight fiercely...." That doesn't sound very coddling and nicey-nice at all.

"When our fortunes are not aligned." What does that even mean?! Of course Delta's and its pilot's fortunes are intertwined! I can't think of a circumstance where that would ever change.

Here's my take on that. After taking massive cuts to the value of our careers in what was sold to us as an extreme emergency, we are still living with the massively reduced value years after the "extreme emergency" has been over. And DAL management hasn't lifted a finger to rectify the situation. It doesn't get a whole lot more "out of alignment" than that! If there was ever a time to "stand ready, willing and able to fight fiercely", this is it! (and has been for several years)

11-14-2010 | 01:01 PM

#2544

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Most of the guys I talk to probably want a lot more than the restoration you seek. The difference is that they do not want to make demands that they KNOW will not be met until inflation catches up with these demands.

UN-BEEE-LIEVABLE! Are you really a DPA supporter acl? You cannot do more than this post. A new low in the setting of expectations. 50% of our pay is taken in one shot, but we can't get it back until future inflation allows for it.

If this really is the views of our reps and not just the view of our chief surrender monkey, DPA is a shoe-in.

Carl

11-14-2010 | 01:04 PM

#2545

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reroute

Only the most naive and ill informed would believe that it is possible to stand up a new union from scratch...

You're right. APA, SWAPA, IPA must just be illusions.

What were we thinking? Reroute says it's not possible.

Carl

11-14-2010 | 01:05 PM

#2546

capncrunch

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Joined: Feb 2008

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Here's my take on that. After taking massive cuts to the value of our careers in what was sold to us as an extreme emergency, we are still living with the massively reduced value years after the "extreme emergency" has been over. And DAL management hasn't lifted a finger to rectify the situation. It doesn't get a whole lot more "out of alignment" than that! If there was ever a time to "stand ready, willing and able to fight fiercely", this is it! (and has been for several years)

+1

The company got their pound of flesh to survive. Now it's time we get it back, plus interest.

11-14-2010 | 01:07 PM

#2547

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reroute

If the DPA proponents want to build a union from scratch then have them do it, don't ask the current volunteers to pick up the mess DPA's leadership would leave behind.

IMO, the DPA leadership doesn't have a plan to takeover, nor the stomach for real union work, that's why their counting on ALPA volunteers to be DPA volunteers.

DPA isn't counting on ALPA volunteers to be DPA volunteers. Nowhere have they said this. But this statement that you've made up is a great example of a straw man argument. Make up a wrong premise, then argue against it. Do you think that people don't notice?

Carl

Last edited by Carl Spackler; 11-14-2010 at 01:46 PM.

11-14-2010 | 01:09 PM

#2548

capncrunch

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

You have to give him credit where it's due.

He sets the bar far below restoration and if ALPA stays in place, that is just what I expect. It's worked on me.

11-14-2010 | 01:14 PM

#2549

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

I'd rather try and fail than to give up and accept defeat from the start. Makes it a little easier to look at yourself in the mirror...

You've just illustrated a main difference between some of us. I hope that most agree with you. But many others on this forum are believers in the "let's live to fight another day" concept.

We will not get anything that we are not willing to fight for.

Carl

11-14-2010 | 01:19 PM

#2550

Carl Spackler

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From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare

You mean like the services they don't provide to AA? Oh.. but they pay for them right? So... lemme get this straight: DAL decides to tell alpa national to hit the road. That is conservatively 25% of the revenue that the hogs at Herndon need to survive. And... The DPA needs some help with.. oh.. I don't know... contract administration. You mean to tell me that alpa national would not even SELL DPA those services? really?

Even more important than that: DPA's financial muscle could easily purchase Seth Rosen's firm away from ALPA and make it a subsidiary of the DPA. Add UAL/CAL to the mix, and it's a no brainer. And again, this would only be necessary if it were decided that no other human being in the universe is capable of tough negotiations other than Mr. Rosen.

Carl