Not from what I've seen. Both old and new reps have been very negative about the possibility of getting the kinds of increases that would be required to even make significant progress towards restoration. As one example, just look at all the criticism of APA asking for a partial restoration.

From what I've seen, I really don't think this is the case. I suspect it's a matter of not wanting to just come out and say straight up that they don't think restoration is possible. Everything I have seen from the past and current reps has been extremely negative about the possibility of getting the kinds of increases it would take for true restoration. They say it's "unreasonable." I don't think that has anything to do with keeping your strategy secret. I think it has a lot to do with objectives that are not really in line with what this pilot group wants. That may be the only secret that's being kept.

 

I guess we've been talking to different people....

 

Yeah, apparently so. If you know of some reps that are positive about making significant progress towards true restoration in 2012, I'd be very interested to know about that. And if that's true, then I don't know how you reconcile it with all the harsh criticism of APA's +50% (which is only partial restoration for them) being too extreme and unrealistic.

And just to be clear, the following (which I've posted before) is the kind of perspective that I think is necessary if you want to be honest about what kind of pay restoration involves. Are you telling me that your reps are talking these kinds of increases?
__________________________________________________ _____

Perspective on Pay

Here’s a little perspective on our pay rates using October 1, 1986 and January 1, 2000 (1996 concessionary contract – preC2K) rates:

Let’s take a look at some examples of these past rates, and see what it would take in 2012 for true restoration of the buying power they provided:

(First we’ll look at some MD-88 Captain 12 year rates as a basis for comparison, and then we’ll look at some 767-300 Captain 12 year rates for the same comparisons.)

October 1, 1986 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $135.53

January 1, 2000 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate (pre-C2K): $175.00

January 1, 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $167.68

Adjusted for inflation to 2012 – (source: Tom’s Inflation Calculator)
The 1986 rate of $135.53 would be $280.13 in 2012.
The 2000 (pre-C2K) rate of $175.00 would be $233.58 in 2012.

To bring the October 1, 1986 rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $280.13 in 2012, would require a 67% increase to the current contract’s 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) rate of $167.68.

To bring the January 1, 2000 (pre-C2K) rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $233.58 in 2012, would require a 33.5% increase to the current contract’s 2012 MD-88 Captain (12 yr) rate of $167.68. In other words, our new 2012 contract would need a 33.5% increase to this rate just to bring its buying power to the same level as the 1996 concessionary contract rate!


Now for the 767-300 –

October 1, 1986 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $158.21

January 1, 2000 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate (pre-C2K): $203.25

January 1, 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) Rate: $188.96

Adjusted for inflation to 2012 – (source: Tom’s Inflation Calculator)
The 1986 rate of $158.21 would be $327.01 in 2012.
The 2000 rate of $203.25 would be $271.29 in 2012.

To bring the October 1, 1986 rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $327.01 in 2012, would require a 73% increase to the current contract’s 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) rate of $188.96.

To bring the January 1, 2000 (pre-C2K) rate to its inflation-adjusted value of $271.29 in 2012, would require a 43.5% increase to the current contract‘s 2012 767-300 Captain (12 yr) rate of $188.96. In other words, our new 2012 contract would need a 43.5% increase to this rate just to bring its buying power to the same level as the 1996 concessionary contract rate!

*** Obviously, C2K buying power restoration would require substantially greater percentage increases than the ones shown above. ***

 

DAL88;
It is a moving target. Everyone wants restoration. It comes down to what each and every pilot thinks they can get when it is time to fill out the Q and A.

Also, if you do not like what your reps are saying, tell them to say something else, after all they are your reps!

 

Delta reps have been critical of APA because they have accomplished exactly nothing. When you talk of full restoration as mentioned before you are talking 2 billion a year in increased expense to Delta. Great if your senior and wont be here long. Perhaps not so great if your junior and have a lot of years ahead of you. If we achieved that type of contract there would be fallout in many areas. Delta would be unable to finance aircraft at decent rates. The other employees would quickly make Delta a far worse airline then we are even today. Customer service would be below the lows we already achieve. I think we would start to shrink and furloughs would soon follow if not another chapter 11.
I am all for restoration. I just disagree with what many post on here as to how to achieve it. Had American opened for some nice gains and signed a contract 2 years ago that would be amendable in 2012 where would we be now. It would be the benchmark contract. UAL and CAL would build off of that setting us up for bigger gains. Sadly that is now history since AMR failed to get anything done.
Still its a lesson for the future. If and that is a if we can get a contract done at or near the amendable date with reasonable gains based off the new UAL contract and SWA that puts us industry leading I think that is a far smarter method then getting iced like AMR by the NMB. We can then be exchanging openers in 2016 on the next contract with the other airlines having followed are 2012 contract. The other options is demand full restoration now. We will still be making that demand and working under the current contract in 2016. I have listened to many pilots state they will except nothing less then full restoration plus inflation. When asked to outline a strategy to achieve that you only get silence.
I want the highest quality of life and most money I can get out of Delta. I don't see asking for 2 billion a year in contract improvements as having any chance of providing that. Give me a sound strategy to achieve that and I will back it 100 percent. I have yet to hear anyone offer even a long shot method to get there.

 

The problem is that your method is a long shot at best. The math and the timeline just do not work.

You say you are all for restoration. And then you spend the majority of your post giving all the reasons (some of which are nothing more than your opinion) why it's not feasible or we shouldn't try for it. The reps I have communicated with over the past few years (including recently) sound exactly the same. ACL sounds exactly the same. This is not something I am comfortable with and I absolutely do not want people who think this way representing me. Sorry, but I'm not willing to give up on the value of this career.

 

+1

DAL 88,

If we ever have a layover together, and a long enough time, way over and above FAR limits (You have to say that nowadays.), the first round is on me.

New K Now

 

And again the answer is silence. Give me a plan.

 

It has to make you wonder if when the negotiators for the American pilots walk into the room with management and ask for full restoration, if their management doesn't look back at them and say, "even if we could raise the extra cash to pay you fellas, we can't pay you that much more than Delta pilots because we wouldn't remain competitive." Then mutter under their breath, "Thank God for the Delta pilots."

 

Plan:


1.) Ask for what you want.

2.) See if the company gives it to you.

3.) If they don't, make a case as to why they should.



Not:

Which equals: BEWARE DELTA PILOTS, IF WE GET TOO MUCH MONEY.......



I can't prove what you say won't happen, but counter to that, there is not one bit of that you can prove will happen if we get what we want.

Ask for what you want.......