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Old 11-25-2010, 09:56 AM
  #3001  
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Originally Posted by TheManager
Why shouldn't labor be a fixed cost?

It should be.

What if we took it a step further. What if ALPA labor was a fixed cost?

An ALPA 757 pilot at Ucal/Dal/or any ALPA carrier that operates them has a set floor.

How do we get from here to there? How can we make such a change? How does it work that this is the case with RR's?


Repeal the RLA
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:16 AM
  #3002  
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Originally Posted by newKnow
Still no answer to my question from a few pages back?

Restated in a different fashion: If you are not willing to ask for what you want, what are you willing to ask for? Why?

In my book, if you accept the premise of the question, you have a problem if you can't answer it BUT you still most likely have a problem even if you can answer it.

I'm still waiting for any real answer. What's your plan?


Happy Thanksgiving.
Answering that question is a bit like answering what is a house in Las Vegas going to be worth 5 years from now. Any answer to that question will have to start with "It depends......". The variables are so many it's impossible to know with any detail what it would be worth. The only thing you can say is that looking back to 2006, at the peak of the boom, is worthless, and looking at prices now at the trough is also worthless. Mostly the answer to that question is based on market forces, forces that an individual homeowner has no control over.

For us, the answer to the question is also "It depends...." The market forces that will shape our contract demands will mostly center around what other pilot groups get in the next couple of years and how much money the company is making. There are market conditions that would make C2K rates impossible and there are market conditions that would make C2K rates woefully short of the mark. Setting some target now is pointless.

Despite what M88 Driver says, no one in ALPA makes fun of the APA, it is just we hope they do something to move the market forward. They have completely failed to do anything the last few years, despite being in Section 6. So far this year, AMR corp has lost $373 million and probably will report a flat 4Q. The 3Q net profit was their first in 2 and half years and it was still one quarter. Yet they have been stuck on contract demands that would increase AMR's costs over $1.5 billion per year. Seriously, I want to hear how you think that disparity will ever get reconciled. Rather than choose an arbitrary target, maybe the APA could move forward with more modest demands with some performance kickers that could automatically give them more raises when the company rebounds.

If we set some target completely removed from market forces, then we could either undershoot what is possible, or we could be like the APA and overshoot the market and sit in the penalty box for years on end.

So the final answer to your question is "It depends...." Probably not very satisfying but it's the only one that is the truth. Surely it would be easy to make some artificially high target and proclaim myself a better pilot than the rest of you, but I would just be lying to you. Others will go ahead and give the phony bravado, but if they know for sure what the market forces are going to be two years from now, they should retire and trade stocks. They will be billionaires quite shortly.
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:38 AM
  #3003  
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Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Thanks for showing up just to put words in my mouth.

NO, I am NOT saying that at all, but then again you knew that.

What I AM saying, is you show me a perennially profitable carrier, and I'll show you one that pays above industry average wages. It's not that labor subsidizes bad management, its that you can't get blood out of a turnip. And two quarters of profits doesn't turn a turnip into a pot of gold.
No.. that is EXACTLY what you said. You show a graphic of the net tangible assets of DAL and use that as a basis for quantifying the difference in payrates between DAL and SWA. There is no way to take it other than that dude. Why not show a graphic of average payrates obtained by SWAPA versus those obtained by ALPA? THAT would be interesting. Unless you are trying to get everyone to realize that SWA is not an airline, but rather a bus service that will always be profitable because as we all know they only offer one item on the menu. That I might be able to get on board with. But to say otherwise is disingenuous. I know what you are doing... start those expectations headed down before it really starts getting ugly.

Happy thanksgiving, and GO LIONS!!!!
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:39 AM
  #3004  
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Originally Posted by satchip
[/B]

Repeal the RLA

this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this thisthis this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:54 AM
  #3005  
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Originally Posted by satchip
[/B]

Repeal the RLA
I think we would all love that. Going back to regulation would be great as well being that we are more than quasi regulated now.

However, it would be interesting to see how our RR brothers work within the RLA iaw compensation and benefits. Something to research this weekend. I know that they have a retirement that is vastly different, I just don't have the facts. Maybe we can look to them instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. As the saying goes....God gave you eyes, so plagerize. Also, we need a contract comparison study to our Sky Team breathern.

Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:11 PM
  #3006  
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Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.



And...you still haven't.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:15 PM
  #3007  
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Despite what M88 Driver says, no one in ALPA makes fun of the APA...
Hey, it's "Mr. M88 Driver" to you! And yes, I have definitely seen and heard both ALPA officials and ALPA supporters making very derogatory and condescending comments about APA. I'm not going to go back and retrieve a bunch of quotes. I think you can just go back and review this very thread and find plenty of examples.

One thing I definitely agree with you on... There are way too many variables to predict the future with any certainty.

Up until recently, airline pilots had a bigger piece of the pie (okay, I can't even think about pie right now!). We are no less important today than we were for decades before this past one. Some of those variables need to be shuffled around and properly compensating us needs to have a higher priority than it does right now. I want the folks representing me to be making the case for this, not making the case for why it supposedly cannot happen.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:30 PM
  #3008  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Hey, it's "Mr. M88 Driver" to you! And yes, I have definitely seen and heard both ALPA officials and ALPA supporters making very derogatory and condescending comments about APA. I'm not going to go back and retrieve a bunch of quotes. I think you can just go back and review this very thread and find plenty of examples.

One thing I definitely agree with you on... There are way too many variables to predict the future with any certainty.

Up until recently, airline pilots had a bigger piece of the pie (okay, I can't even think about pie right now!). We are no less important today than we were for decades before this past one. Some of those variables need to be shuffled around and properly compensating us needs to have a higher priority than it does right now. I want the folks representing me to be making the case for this, not making the case for why it supposedly cannot happen.
Dal, I have to disagree with you on this one. I think several market forces have driven down our value and subsequently our compensation from the lofty heights of yesteryear. First of all there are far more of us than there was in the salad days. It is also easier to mint a new 121 pilot than it was then. Lastly, technology is working against us.

Forgive me if I don't expound on these points as I'm typing on my iPad whilst watching the cowgirls lose badly. I'm also contemplating the pizza il be having for thanksgiving dinner. At least there are some slightly overweigh Brazilian chicks at the pool. Oh joy.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:38 PM
  #3009  
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Originally Posted by TheManager
I think we would all love that. Going back to regulation would be great as well being that we are more than quasi regulated now.

However, it would be interesting to see how our RR brothers work within the RLA iaw compensation and benefits. Something to research this weekend. I know that they have a retirement that is vastly different, I just don't have the facts. Maybe we can look to them instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. As the saying goes....God gave you eyes, so plagerize. Also, we need a contract comparison study to our Sky Team breathern.

Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.
Don't know about now, but once upon a time I think rail crews were paid by the "day", that day was defined as a certain number of miles.

So that 25 or 30 dollars an hour posted a few pages pack under that calculation turns out to be quite a rate per that kind of "day".
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Old 11-25-2010, 02:51 PM
  #3010  
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Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Carl...

How can you, in all good conscience, argue facts with someone who in such a short career, have gained SO much knowledge?(grin)

Seriously...between going from where he was to where he is...and where he's going to be...he has not only accumulated thousands of hours of experience (well in excess of yours and your bretheren), full knowledge of the industry and ALPA (which YOU could have had you not been just snoozing since the 70's) and on top of all that, has gained financial and contractual accumen beyond the capabilities of all.

Didn't ALPA recently have a guy like that on the magazine as their "poster child?"

Prediction: He will, singlehandedly convert EVERY pilot at SWAPA. You read it here first!

Couple of thoughts. A few elections back, a UAL committee chairman asked Babbitt a simple question. "Do you know WHY we elected you?"

Randy, in his usual style, waxed upon his experience, dedication and background.

The Captain...one of their first 777 guys said, "No. We elected you to go to jail. We elected you to have a set of balls and stand up to management and the judge if necessary. To tell the judge, "where and when do I show up," while telling your lawyers, "my feet better not cross the jailhouse steps." THATS what we elected you for."

Needless to say, he was shocked.

Unless you have a union president who understands that, you're right...you haven't got a union, you have an association.

As far as APA and the contract with IPSC...understand that it is the FIRST contract that IPSC has ever gotten in the years it has been in existence.

Now that is no reflection on Seth...he's a good guy. However the inability of IPSC to get any business over the years shows a lack of confidence by others in the ability of ALPA to deliver on the product. Were this not the case, IPSC would have had people banging on the doors of the 8th Floor begging for assistance.

Oh wait...most of the 8th Floor got sold off to pay the bills.
This can't be true ATC! This PCL guy says that Seth and his crew aided SWAPA and all the other unions...for their successful contracts. But for the BK contracts, Seth was retired. But post BK, Seth is back from retirement helping out.

So you see, IPSC is responsible for all the industry's positive contracts, but retired for the bad ones.

Happy Thanksgiving to you!

Carl
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