His point as well as mine is that it should be mainline. DAL88 and I agree on that.

Laws et al are always nice to have on your side of an argument, but the reality is we need to fix our own mess.

 

Nice dodge... but I shouldn't have expected a real answer.

 

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

The day that "corporate veil" is pierced is the day RJs REALLY start getting parked.

Risk management people work on a very fixed set of rules to come up with the numbers. If the rules change, so do the numbers.

Nu

 

As for your first point, I agree that it should happen, and that the reason it appears to be happening now is the devistated economics of the 50 seater. But as I've mentioned before, this chapter is still being written. Regionals with dirt cheap pilot costs already operate common type outsourced jets for Delta (and others) who'se common type siblings go up to almost 120 seats, and one current "air group" DL outsources generously to already operates 100 seaters and even A320's in their own colors. Also, every mainline is infatuated with 70 and OMG 76 seaters (when able) and can't get enough of them. One of the companies DL outsources to not only has that exact potential future common type issue I mentioned, but also has firm orders for semi-next gen 100 seaters and when they are directly asked who they will fly them for, they answer "we're not worried about it, we're confident we will get scope relief."

All of that makes scope far more important that some transient MEC thest thumping about "look at the rates we got you" which is what I believe will ultimately be the case long term if mainline pilot groups don't reverse outsourcing now to some significant degree as their first priority.

Those who trade scope for pay wind up with neither.

As for your second point, that is a potential threat, particularly among an apathetic pilot group or worse, a pretend active pilot group who only or primarily focuses on pay rates, little micro niche triple time schemes and the like. However, I think its fair to say that there are some widebody Captains who get this issue 100% and won't agree to outsource anymore and in fact may fight to re-insource at least some at the career compensation drag chute abomination that is the 76 seat level. I think its fair to also say that most widebody FO's get this issue, as do most narrowbody Captains. And it goes without saying that pretty much all narrowbody FO's get it, complete with the appropriate extreme predjudice the issue deserves.

So I'm just not seeing 50%+1 on more outsourcing no matter how big the cookie is, because I think at least that percentage knows that the checkbook is going to be opened up no matter what. There is simply nothing that management can afford to throw at the group over all that will tempt enough pilots who know better this time around. Everyone has seen and lived the ill effects of outsourcing and yes that includes even in light of bogus and shortsighted promises by both management and union leadership.

So any cookie that management offers in exchange for more outsourcing will be a very, very poor negotiating tactict. It will simply be red meat to the hounds because everybody will know that they can afford to offer the same or better without the outsourcing, precisely because the more you outsource the more you hurt yourself WRT compensation and QOL. There is nothing that management or an outsourced happy MEC with an alterior agenda (theoretically) can offer the pilot group to tempt them because no one will believe that scheme is sustainable. More scope relief equals a nominal amount of additional compensation for a little while, followed by disproportionately massive concessions fueled by the very scope relief in the first place.

The only demographic that might bite off on it from an actual fiscal motive are those with nothing to lose because they are within a few years of punching out. To them it may make sense to do so. But not only is that demographic severely outnumbred, I think that a significant percentage of them wouldn't go along with it anyway. They know as well as anyone that the only reason there is scope to sell is precisely because others before them have fought so hard to get and keep what remains. Implying that the entire demographic of retiring pilots will say "oh, oh, oh, I have a great idea! We can sell out the bottom so I get a cookie today! Weeeeee!" is not only insulting but I think its a poor understanding of not only motivation but integrity as well. Some might agree to do it, but IMO the vast majority of the list will not. It won't matter if its because someone cares about the profession or not.

Selling scope for pay results in the loss of both and pretty much everyone gets it this time. The only way it can happen IMO is with an apathetic or pay rate focused only pilot majority and I don't see that being the case.

 

Okay, I thought you were just being smart alecky so I gave a smart aleck response. Exactly what question do you want answered?

 

"that was easy" easy button, it was a sequitur

 

I'll make it even simpler: EVERYBODY must meet DAL's basic hiring minimums. Then these candidates compete to be new hires. No back door entry to the DAL seniority list via hiring on with the right RJ airline.

Carl

 

Beliefs like yours are a cancer to the major airline industry. You are the one supporting the destruction of our industry by working for food stamp wages. Yet you rail against people like me who have worked and struck to maintain as a high a wage base and QOL base as possible.

I would tell you to wise up, but I don't think you can.

Carl

 

Yes. Those previously unqualified pilots used the flying taken away by management to gain experience. After gaining that experience, some with clean backgrounds got hired after going through the interview process. During this process, they competed with military and other civilian pilots. It would be a perfect process were it not for the fact that some of these pilots originally hired on to a job to which they were profoundly unqualified. And that in the process of gaining their experience, worked for food stamp wages and damaged the profession of the airline pilot.

Carl