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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:09 PM
  #9401  
Carl Spackler's Avatar
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
JM gave up the E170/175 to DCI. Biggest scope mistake we made!
No it wasn't. The Atlantic joint venture and giving up on our NRT minimums are/were the worst scope mistakes ever made.

Carl
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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:12 PM
  #9402  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
gzsg's posts=


The redefinition of gzsg's posts as you've done reminds me of this:





Carl
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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:19 PM
  #9403  
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All hail the all knowing Carl. All hail all hail
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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:36 PM
  #9404  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
All hail the all knowing Carl. All hail all hail
See tsquare...was that so hard?

Carl
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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:44 PM
  #9405  
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Originally Posted by gzsg
He was NC and plenty of communication.

I don't have access or I would post it.
He was one of those Time Value of Money guys

(Text stolen shamelessly from the dead sea forum)

CONTRACT 2000 A Timely and Superior Agreement BY CAPT. JOHN MALONE, NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN

In pursuit of Contract 2000 your union has set a goal of a timely and superior agreement. We all understand superior, but why the emphasis on timely?

Is it not true that full scale negotiations normally go far past the amendable date, which in our case is May 2, 2000? Will we sacrifice some of the superior to achieve timely? Why would management want to take part in timely if it means giving the pilots superior? What happens if we do not get timely? We heard these questions at every road show. Here are our answers.

Why the emphasis on timely?
  • We have lived long enough under Contract 1996.
  • There is the time value of money. The longer it takes to achieve a pay raise, the larger that raise must be to equal a “timely raise.” Money becomes less valuable with time due to inflation and because you do not have that money to invest.
  • Retro pay becomes more contentious the longer it takes us to reach a settlement.
  • Work rules and quality of life items are never retroactive.
  • We need scope improvements now.
  • The economy is booming and this is great time to achieve our goals!
  • The political climate is right. If we go much past May, we run into the national political elections and our chances of getting relief in the form of a release from the Federal government may diminish. We are such a large carrier that we may have to wait until the new President takes office.
A timely agreement helps with pattern bargaining. The earlier we achieve our next superior agreement, the more we help our brothers and sisters in the industry. Delta and United are amendable in 2000, American in 2001, Northwest in 2002, and US Airways in 2003. We leap over them, and they leap over us in turn, setting the stage for our next contract.

Is it not true that these negotiations normally go far past the amendable date?
That has certainly been the trend, but we do not believe that this must be the case in our situation. It has become “acceptable” for the amendable date to come and go in our industry. We must no longer accept that it is okay to go beyond the amendable date, especially for one or two years. Your union has committed all the resources necessary to achieve an on time agreement and will aggressively pursue this goal.

Will we sacrifice some of the superior to achieve timely?
Number We will not sacrifice superior to achieve timely. We must have both. This is easy to measure in terms of work rules; however, do not forget the time value of money.

Why would management want to take part in timely if it means giving the pilots superior?
This is a great question. The last time we negotiated a full Section Six agreement with management we were giving concessions and management could not get us to an agreement fast enough. Why is the reverse not true now?

Labor peace is more valuable than most of us believe. First, it allows management to concentrate on running the business. Second, it allows management the ability to secure capital at lower rates (the moneylenders rightfully perceive higher risk in lending money to a company that may experience labor strife).

Since coming to Delta, Leo Mullin has found it difficult to continue with the corporation’s fleet plans. He also found it impossible to execute the code-share agreement he wanted with United because of the relationship with his pilots. The only way management can get this pilot group to cooperate with its goals is to allow us to share in the wealth and prosperity that the company is enjoying. The only acceptable way to do that is through a timely and superior agreement. Your union leadership reminds management of this at every opportunity.

There are some questions that your union leadership asks to determine whether management is really interested in concluding a timely agreement. They are:
  • Has management made any public statements committing to a timely agreement?
  • Has management assembled a capable negotiating committee?
  • Is that committee able to schedule negotiating sessions, and do they attend those sessions prepared to work?
  • Is management willing to work with us on our issues?
So far, the answer to all of the above questions is yes.

What happens if we don’t get timely?
As stated earlier, we will not sacrifice superior for timely. Due to issues such as the value of money over time and the ever changing nature of scope, this contract will become ever more expensive for management. This is especially true as the pilots continue to lose faith that this management team is committed to bringing the pilots on the same team as the rest of the corporation.

If we do not achieve a timely agreement we must all be prepared to see this through the long way provided by Railway Labor Act. That means preparing your family both financially and emotionally for a legal job action.
May 2, 2000, is a real goal.
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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:50 PM
  #9406  
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
According to you. John was negotiating committee chair and Mike was strike committee chair. Most of the people that you hate that do ALPA work were all working on the strike committee at that time. Neither John nor Mike was allowed to communicate to the pilots without extensive review from the MEC administration so you can shelve the idea that he alone did anything. C2K was the result of a massive team effort. Some have tried to set themselves up as singular heroes that won the day by themselves, but those of us that were there know what really happened. If John was so super valuable then where is he now, I mean other than sitting on the sidelines and throwing rocks. If John really believed in union effort, he would pitch in even if he isn't the lead dog. If you are only part of a team when you are the leader then you are not a teammate, you are a narcissist. Let's face it, no one is indispensable to the union. What counts is working together and accepting the fact that you alone are not in control.
Folks, this is what alfaromeo did before he was fired from the MEC administration. Politically motivated hatchet jobs to anyone who stepped out of line. Anyone. He can't stop it even after getting fired.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo
That is why you webboard warriors are so frustrated. You have some self important view that if only everyone did what you said, the world would revolve around you. It won't and never will.
Your frustration stems from being fired from the MEC administration Alfa. Every once in a while your frustration at being on the outside boils over into another hatchet job like above.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo
You just selectively see heroes and goats based on who agrees with you in the last 20 seconds. From my viewpoint you are all anger with no strategic vision. If someone like you were put in charge you would get chewed up in a second. This is multi-billion dollar business. Your type of anger and vitriol isn't worth jack in this environment.
Lashing out at everyone around you is unseemly Alfa. Go take an aspirin and listen to Mozart or something.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I mean you value open honest, communication, so here it is with no gift wrapping. I'm sure that makes me a mean guy; or maybe just an honest one that doesn't care too much what you think of me.
I certainly value your open and honest communication Alfa. It's important you continue to show you are what I've always said you were.

Carl
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Old 10-11-2014 | 02:50 PM
  #9407  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The redefinition of gzsg's posts as you've done reminds me of this:





Carl
That's funny. He claims that things like pay banding are a done deal and we're actively negotiating for it. We aren't in negotiations, nor has it even been mentioned.

That's what we call throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks. He didn't even understand why pay banding is a bad thing!
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Old 10-11-2014 | 03:10 PM
  #9408  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
blah blah blah blah blah DPA blah blah blah blah
Yeah...

Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Caddis, I do not think I am saying that ALPA does not have issues and needs to be fixed. What I am saying is that the issues are fixable and the unintended consequences are to great to take them lightly. There is a huge difference.
Originally Posted by tsquare
I disagree. I do not think these issues are fixable. It's just like Congress. the entrenched elite are never going to go away despite all the threats to the contrary. I cannot believe that you can really defend them. But just to dig a little deeper... what is it exactly that we get from national that couldn't be had by writing a check? We need an ALPA attorney? they won't EVER turn money down.. I have yet to meet a lawyer that would. Aeromedical? I have used them and they really are a good bunch of people, but those services are not so unique that they cannot be duplicated here. Why are the executives payrates some kind of average of the MAJOR airlines that make up their constituency? Why not an average of ALL the highest paying airlines under their pervue? I'll bet his attitude would certainly change as to who is more impolrtant. How much of that gigantic MCF have the DAL pilots ever used? show me some of these things that make the national part of this association worthwhile and I will get on board. How are the DELTA pilots being supported by this bureaucracy?

/rant OFF
My tsquare speaks for me!

Carl
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Old 10-11-2014 | 03:13 PM
  #9409  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
That's funny. He claims that things like pay banding are a done deal and we're actively negotiating for it. We aren't in negotiations, nor has it even been mentioned.

That's what we call throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks. He didn't even understand why pay banding is a bad thing!
Desi and the boys didn't do anything on C2012 and they are not doing anything now. They sit patiently and await MEC direction. Just the way it is supposed to work.

And the Great Pumpkin will visit you later this month if you are a good boy.
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Old 10-11-2014 | 03:14 PM
  #9410  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Since all the DPA supporters here agree that the vote isn't going to happen, why doesn't TC see the same inevitable fate and stop taking people's money?
I agree about not taking any more money, but I see great value in having a decertification bureaucracy in place and ready to go for when DALPA pulls the exact same tactic with C2015 as they did with C2012.

Carl
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