I find it difficult to buy a decent meal while on the road. But not because of the cost of a meal, because of the sh!t they sell at the airport. It is very hard to find something healthy other than a salad. Everything is fried. No fresh veggies. So your choices are the samalian super thin don't eat or the the greasy fatty get a huge @$$ option of dining. That is, of course, if you don't bring your own which in a good alternative.

 

Thank you Lab Rat,

You seem to be on the same page as myself in regards to pilot finances.

Pilots it seems are the sort who live for the day. Few seem to take stock of the balance sheet of the career they are pursuing. Seldom do they take into consideration the real costs of training, education and early years of experience building versus the amount of return. Everyone knows what the top pay of a Captain is at their dream job however seldom do they stop to calculate the odds of actually reaching it or of the losses they will take in the attempt.

I think that a large reason for the shift in thinking is the fact that neophyte's are assaulted today with a wide range of loan options. My guess is that their plan includes either an eventual loan default or to pass off the obligation on to the poor co-signer. If they had to earn every training dollar as they went like I did then perhaps they would have greater expectations of income upon reaching marketability. To accept such a high debt load without an opportunity to repay it is illogical at best.

In my case it would have taken me 25 years of effort and perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars in education, training and lost income to reach 50,000 per year as a Horizon Pilot. By comparison I have a few recent college graduate friends who started one week after graduation at $54,000. I also have two guys who do occasional construction labor for me who earn over 40K. One is a high school drop out and the other is struggling against a meth addiction. They are the best guys I can find for the money. I have often thought I should buy a plane and then staff my job sites with pilots on the nail gun 4 days a week and in the plane one. I bet I could have a line of applicants willing to work for 18K per year.

At the end of the day the amount of income needs to be worthy of the efforts made. The current generation seems to be of the mindset that it is sac-religious to suggest otherwise. Each perspective pilot should sit down and calculate all the costs and time spent and then double that number to have a close estimate of what the real price of an aviation career is.

SKyHigh

 

Huh? I'd much rather do an overnight in Amsterdam than Tulsa! (I don't bid IRO lines, I hold International FO)

 

I got hired at 40, so what? I'm happy. I can upgrade next year (200 numbers from CA on 737's). I'll retire a widebody CA easy. There are a lot of "doom and gloom" people on here who want someone to share their misery. Sure, not everyone can be hired at an airline. More pilots than jobs. I didn't give up and got hired by a major at 40. A 20 year career is not that bad, no matter when or what you upgrade and fly. 12 year FO widebody pay is not that bad to live on. I'm now on second year pay and make the same as a widebody FO that I made as a 9 year CA on an RJ. How can that be bad? For those who want to be airline pilots- do it. Don't listen to these losers who tell you to give up. Good luck.

 

You have to keep in mind that it will be difficult to replicate your situation in the future. Even at CAL things will be very different for those who get hired a year or two from now. What I was writing about was in regards to average expectations as a new hire at the majors. Even at SWA things will be different for new hires in 2 to three years. By then most of the hiring boom will be over and upgrades will slow to a trickle.


We are all still happy and proud of you though.

SKyHigh

 

>>Even at SWA things will be different for new hires in 2 to three years. By then most of the hiring boom will be over and upgrades will slow to a trickle.<<

With all due respect, SkyHigh, you don't have a clue. I am sorry that your dream career didn't pan out, but it sounds like you made some poor choices along the way. It kind of reminds me of those who told me I was nuts when I went and got a type rating. I am sure glad I didn't listen to them. I now pay more in taxes than those learned men earn.

At SWA the seniority list demographics are just rolling in to where retirements are a factor. We now have more retirements in some months than we had the whole time I was an FO. Upgrades at SWA will never be a trickle. The marketplace isn't going to hold SWA back because we only serve about a third of the domestic market and that doesn't count Canada, Mexico, or the Carribbean. SWA actually has to grow to keep its cost advantage. The only thing that has slowed things down some are lack of airplanes. SWA has never not converted an option to an order and has an agreement on the table to convert every option they currently have. SWA is also actively looking the world over for more airplanes. As other airlines start to **** backwards on their orders SWA will snatch the delivery slots and continue to sop up the abandoned market.
SWA has three aces up its sleeves.
1. Having money makes you money. Having money has allowed SWA to invest in things like fuel hedging and winglets, et-cetera. The all American "rich get richer" scenario.
2. Investment grade credit rating. This effects all kinds of costs such as insurance costs, lease agreements, bond requirements, vendor pricing, et-cetera. Rich get richer part deux.
3. Long haul is inherently cheaper than short haul. SWA is lengthening their stage length and in the process, lowering its CASM. The others, like JetBlue are doing just the opposite and increasing their costs and lowering their competitiveness.

There is a lot of energy right now at SWA to embark on a huge growth spurt.

There have been SWA Captains in their 20's and there will continue to be so in the future. Ugrading in your 30's is quite common. (35 for me).

The reasons that SWA is an attractive place to work are no different now than they were 20 years ago when I first made them my objective, and will still be the same 20 years from now and beyond.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. I did a little dream chasing myself, fortunately I caught myself before things got too ugly. I have enough out in student loans that, after doing a little reasearch, I realized there was no way in hell I would be able to keep my head above water while flight instructing and my first few years at the regionals. I decided to change majors and am now planning on majoring in accounting and aviation management. Should graduate in less than 2 more years. Most accounting jobs are starting at 40k and doubling in about 5 years. With that being so I should have my loans payed off in 3-5 years tops vs. the next 30 years while trying to make a go as a pilot. At 21, if I decide to pursue a career as a pilot at a later date, I will still have plenty of time, a better head on my shoulders, lots of freinds in the industry, and hopefully a little cash in the bank. I’m not sure how great of a career being a pilot would make, but I am certain that regardless of how things turn out it will make a great hobby.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean it as a slam against SWA. My point is that if they follow their growth plans after a few more years they will have conquered the entire nation. Those who follow will have to get in line behind a large and very young pilot group. It will be a long time to upgrade and possibly never for those much over 40. At some point they will have absorbed then entire market and have to stop expansion. The only thing that could change things is if they look to world domination. However that would take them dangerously outside of the strategy that has served them so well.

SKyHigh

 

With a due respect to SkyHigh (aka, Doom and Gloom ) Unless the industry contracts over a long period (more than a couple of years) than retirements alone assure that pilots will be hired into the future, indefinitely. Think about, if your 20 years old, every pilot working for a major (less some CEO nephew hired out of HS) will retire before you would. While hire rates over the years have varied greatly, and as such the average age of pilots varies (remember the WWII bubble??) there is still 50,000+ pilots marching in step to the last flight they will fly for their employer. The reality is even with the most recent aviation depression, professional aviation has grown and will grow into the future. Why?? Population growth, greater amounts of disposal income (more leisure travel), more freight (because a more prosperous population has to, "have it now!!" ), and the biggie; recent, dramatic improvements in the prosperity of the two largest country's on the planet, China and India.
This doesn't address some of the core concerns about the quality of the profession, just the quantity. The QOL of pilots will be determined, IMHO, by their willingness, collectively, to withstand the never ending onslaught by management to increase shareholder value on the backs of its employees.


It's just a shame that the "market leader" for the passenger carriers is the flying equivalent of Walmart. I'm sure its a great place to work (its growing isn't that enough ) but its product is such a POS. If this is the future, I'll sing, "Those Were the Days"...............

 

dckozak,

You are correct about all of that, however the point was if there was enough value left in a career at the majors if you were hired on much after the age of 40. My position is that SWA will have experienced the majority of its currently planned growth within the next few years. After that point it wouldn't be so great to be a 45 year old new hire behind 8500 mostly young pilots.

SkyHigh

Nice to run into you again.