Elliot

Buddy,

Please step away from the computer and let one of your parents log off their APC account.

Your grammatical incorrectness is insulting alone, much less the lack of any effective counter discussion.

Thanks for playing on your folk's computer son. Now back to your homework.

GJ

Elliot

Nope, at least not three of those four anyway.

Offer something of substance or don't waste my time next time, as it's much more valuable than yours with that "simpleton" remark.

GJ

F9 A319

I know what you're saying, but EVEN Eischen had this to say about career expectations:

From the Award, page 33:


“The career path of a commercial airline pilot typically traces an onward and upward trajectory: beginning as a new-hire regional First Officer, under regional terms and conditions of employment; progressing to regional Captain; starting over as a new-hire First Officer at a mainline carrier, under mainline terms and conditions of employment; and progressing, finally, to mainline Captain. At acquisition, virtually every Frontier and Midwest pilot was farther along that traditional career path than was any RAH pilot.

While that fact does not detract from the proven capabilities and professionalism of the Lynx and Republic pilots, it must be recognized.

Moreover, but for the acquisition of Frontier, RAH regional jet pilots could have reached the next level of career progression only by forfeiting accumulated RAH seniority and starting over at the bottom of a seniority ladder as a mainline new hire. The Frontier acquisition now provides the regional jet pilots something of major value to any commercial pilot: a "road less traveled" to the "holy grail": the higher pay and benefits, enhanced life style, better working conditions and enhanced prestige of a mainline carrier Captain position.”

That's what makes us nuts, his written decision seems to be written by a sane, experienced Arbitrator.

But NONE of this made any difference in his construction of the list. I'm sticking with bi-polar or schizophrenic evidenced by the chasm between his written decision and the construction of his bizarre list.

sempergumby

Eischen just created a whole lot of internal "scabs". windfall for sure for RAH pilots. I have nothing against them, except for the ones who are hailing this as great for their careers. Someday may they be in the same position. Oh yea, they probably won't get it.

Elliot

My apologies then if I have hurt your feelings. (Sarcasm works both ways.)

Might you have taken the hint after furlough #2, or at least furlough #3? I don't know about you, but I constantly examine where I am, where I want to be, and how my performance is to sustain and reach my goals. I'm guessing you didn't?

With regard to "management taking bonuses". My apologies to you again that you had to endure that "AS AN EMPLOYEE". This might possibly be your "first wake-up call" in life, but just as you were an employee that was furloughed, also were all the employees of RAH who assumed flying "BECAUSE THEIR MANAGEMENT ACQUIRED IT". Again, it's not rocket science, but still difficult for some to grasp.

Come on........have you really told yourself that enough times to believe it yourself? You don't need a 170 type, you're doing it out of spite as a resentful "EMPLOYEE" for making "POOR DECISIONS" in life. Refer to above comment if you have more questions.

I've highlighted your personal insult in "red". As I didn't believe you'd be above taking "personal jabs" at someone for pointing out the facts, I'll just leave it at that and wish you the best of luck in your "fake" motivations for an E-170 type rating.

I am genuinely happy for you that you enjoyed your time at YX. I am a true believer in everyone needing to "love what they do, and do what they love". If that is what made it a "dream job/airline" for you, then as I said above, congratulations to you and all else who felt the same.

With that being said, as my first post stated, and what you and a few others on this board still fail to comprehend, is that RAH guys are not to blame for your loss. As much as you'd like to blame someone, blame towards the RAH pilots is "misdirected" anger. I've seen everything on this thread from blaming ALPA, to NWA/TPG, to RAH. How about everyone, including those not having a dog in this fight, which includes me btw, to focus their discontent towards "MANAGEMENT". Novel idea, I know, but as soon as everyone begins to act in unity, what good is ALPA to defend us as single entities.

Little homework for you before I go. Look up "synergy", might actually learn something and quit posting for a while about your "poor self".

GJ

F9 A319

It is great for their careers! And I'd take it if offered to me at that phase of my career. The line RAH pilot didn't set out to screw F9, MEA or Lynx. I know they're not happy with their contract as far as scheduling, pay, bidding, being forced to out stations on reserve and on and on.

I don't blame the RAH pilots or begrudge them their happiness over their advancement. Just tone down the few entitled, socially challenged rhetoric in the crew room. It's their 10%'s, RAH pilots have to deal with them (for now) more than we do and we certainly have our 10%'s.

F9 A319

I'm new on the board. Is there an ignore function?

Gearjerk, if you don't "have a dog in this fight" what is your motivation in stirring the bee's nest and generally just saying things to anger or disturb people who are already stinging from how their career has turned out?

Do you just like torturing people and small animals or do you have a point?

The cool thing is that no matter how carefully one manages their career, no one is immune to having the rug pulled out from under them at anytime. I hope when it happens to you, you don't have to listen to comments like yours.

usmc-sgt

User CP near the top of the page, then on the left hand column of options under settings there will be an ignore list. Add whomever youd like.

Mulva

While I personally prefer F9 A319's response to this quote, there is certainly another side to the argument.

Looking at this from the perspective of the arbitrator can provide some insight for those who have not had an opportunity to read the document. Please, no attacks as I'm just the messenger here.

The arbitrator essentially devoted 5 of the 49 pages describing "Midwest's decline into financial free fall and eventual dissolution". He described in great detail Midwest as a company whose "ultimate demise had long roots dating back before 2003". His story detailed how "things went from bad to worse" after the TPG/NWA purchase including "accelerating financial crises", "failed attempts at restructuring", furloughs, grounding of the entire MD-80 fleet and defaults on aircraft lease payments to Boeing Capital "which ultimately repossessed and reallocated all 25" 717's. All of this prior to Fall 2008. He painted a picture of a company bleeding cash ("$95 million between January and April 2008") with Boeing Capital "publicly shopping all 25 Midwest B-717's" which it had the right to do due to Midwest's default on lease payments. He pretty much finished up with this doozie, "By June 23, 2009, Midwest was effectively insolvent, most of it's pilots had been furloughed and Midwest Airlines faced the looming prospect of a cessation of it's business" and "given the immanent return of the B-717s to Boeing, those remaining active Midwest pilots also faced probable furlough and the long-term furloughed Midwest pilots had no reasonable expectation or recall to Midwest Airlines service".

So, regardless of any pilots viewpoint on this, the Arbitrator painted a disastrous picture of failure and minimal (if not ZERO) career expectations for the Midwest pilots. He had very few, if any, positive things so say about Midwest.

He was a bit kinder to Frontier, but ultimately came to a similar conclusion after spending much effort outlining Frontier's slow burn, primarily due to poor management decisions, high fuel costs, and First Data credit card hold back. He wasn't as brutally negative as he was to Midwest as he also spent time discussing the fact that Frontier's Chapter 11 filing "was not proximately caused by lack of profitability. Rather, it was brought down by a liquidity crisis" which he blamed partially on "contracting with RAH for E-170 hub feeder lift" (threw that one in for fun!).

So in summary, he painted a very ugly picture of a failed Midwest enterprise and a not as ugly (but still ugly) picture of a Frontier in the process of failing without financial help. It is very clear reading these pages that the arbitrator was going to be heavily influenced by the simple fact that Midwest and Frontier were both going to cease to exist if left to fend on their own.

So like or not, agree with it or not, this is how he portrayed the career expectations of YX and F9 pilots. He admitted that this arbitration was very difficult and challenging as "the four airlines and pilots involved in this integration proceeding were so disparate and disproportionate" and there was no historical precedent to use as a guide to a "fair and equitable" result. He described the award as a "flexible coat of many colors".

Now, like many of us, I do not agree with the result of this award, but is easy to see how the arbitrator was not going to let career expectations play a big part in his decision as he felt that YX and F9 pilots had minimal expectations without rescue. So maybe this helps support the "bogusosity" of "career expectations" in this award.

Don't shoot me....I'm just playing messenger here.

Mulva

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fa...ublesome_users