What's a major airline pilot worth?
06-08-2011, 06:02 PM
#71
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Problem is that 90% of "airline pilots" are uptight, white republicans living a blue collar labor existance.....wear a uniform and a name tag....you are blue collar....period..embrace it... go out and ply your craft and quit being closet ceo's....college degrees in the last 18 years are nothing more than the high school of your predecessors
existance or existence?
06-08-2011, 09:41 PM
#72
Slaving away
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Gear Mover
Posts: 433
If one is in a union that person is a blue collar worker. Simple as that.
Just cause we have white, albeit slightly soiled, collars doesn't magically make one a white collared worker.
Oh, and the whole manual labor/skilled trade pretty much sums up being a pilot, even if all we do is turn on the autopilot.
Now back to working on my leftist agenda...
Just cause we have white, albeit slightly soiled, collars doesn't magically make one a white collared worker.
Oh, and the whole manual labor/skilled trade pretty much sums up being a pilot, even if all we do is turn on the autopilot.
Now back to working on my leftist agenda...
06-09-2011, 11:08 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: B777 x2 furloughed from United
Posts: 180
Funny you should ask.
I was just looking at a textbook... Intro To Economics.
It goes through a few definitions (cost vs value vs worth, etc) and by page 3 they start with the first lesson: What is worth more, a diamond or a glass of water?
Then they go into the discussion of a guy in the desert and how he would gladly trade diamonds for a glass of water. I guess anyone in the world can relate to diamonds, water, deserts, and thirst.
Reading on to page 5, they go into the second lesson: How much is a 747 Captain worth? (I swear I'm not making this up!)
This discussion goes along the lines of all the training, experience, the lifetime of preparation, a clean record, incredible responsibility, long hours away from home, and so on. So is a 747 pilot worth 300,000 a year? Yes, they reason, as long as there are only so many available.
However, they go on to point out that if there is a surplus of qualified persons to fly 747s, then the "value" of a 747 Captain drops rapidly. Thus ends the second lesson in the economics textbook.
Honest to God... the first two examples in an economics textbook are a rich man dying in the desert and a bunch of 747 pilots that think they're worth more than the market will support.
I didn't read any more after that.
I was just looking at a textbook... Intro To Economics.
It goes through a few definitions (cost vs value vs worth, etc) and by page 3 they start with the first lesson: What is worth more, a diamond or a glass of water?
Then they go into the discussion of a guy in the desert and how he would gladly trade diamonds for a glass of water. I guess anyone in the world can relate to diamonds, water, deserts, and thirst.
Reading on to page 5, they go into the second lesson: How much is a 747 Captain worth? (I swear I'm not making this up!)
This discussion goes along the lines of all the training, experience, the lifetime of preparation, a clean record, incredible responsibility, long hours away from home, and so on. So is a 747 pilot worth 300,000 a year? Yes, they reason, as long as there are only so many available.
However, they go on to point out that if there is a surplus of qualified persons to fly 747s, then the "value" of a 747 Captain drops rapidly. Thus ends the second lesson in the economics textbook.
Honest to God... the first two examples in an economics textbook are a rich man dying in the desert and a bunch of 747 pilots that think they're worth more than the market will support.
I didn't read any more after that.
But on pilot pay. I think supply and demand are everything. Before I made it to a major I struggled to get any jet job. Then when I finally did all the majors started to hire and our company lost most of their experienced crews. All of a sudden training contracts disappeared. They paid you during training. They paid for your hotel during training etc. The company tried to poach other companies pilots and other companies did the same hiring directly into the Capt seat.
The railway labor act is out of date and needs to go. If you want a free market then it needs to be truly free. If not re-regulate.
The age 65 rule made the long term shortage worse. It stagnated the upward movement of crews and pay and conditions. Pilots like my self went through a double furlough and have left the industry. College grades now choose a better paying and more secure job elsewhere.
We need to restrict the number of pilots coming into the industry by making it harder to get a license. Higher academic and experience standards. We need to regain public respect for the profession. Then let supply and demand take it's toll. Pay and conditions will improve. If we keep making it easier and accepting lower standards, pay and conditions will continue to fall.
I'm not going back to work for United at 1993 pay levels, sitting on reserve for another 6 years, 20 days a month. The most I ever made was $74k a year flying 95 hours a month. They would have to at least double that for me to consider returning. Compensation for the inconvenience of being away from my home and family and friends etc.
I'm my own boss now and it's great. I travel when I want to, or stay home every night.
Good luck to all you professional aviators. You deserve better.
06-09-2011, 11:33 AM
#75
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Yes I remember studying economics many, many years ago at college. Same talk of desert and glass of beer and how much was the first one worth to you. Then it asks how much is the second and third one worth. Less probably. Funny they still use the same examples all those years later.
But on pilot pay. I think supply and demand are everything. Before I made it to a major I struggled to get any jet job. Then when I finally did all the majors started to hire and our company lost most of their experienced crews. All of a sudden training contracts disappeared. They paid you during training. They paid for your hotel during training etc. The company tried to poach other companies pilots and other companies did the same hiring directly into the Capt seat.
The railway labor act is out of date and needs to go. If you want a free market then it needs to be truly free. If not re-regulate.
The age 65 rule made the long term shortage worse. It stagnated the upward movement of crews and pay and conditions. Pilots like my self went through a double furlough and have left the industry. College grades now choose a better paying and more secure job elsewhere.
We need to restrict the number of pilots coming into the industry by making it harder to get a license. Higher academic and experience standards. We need to regain public respect for the profession. Then let supply and demand take it's toll. Pay and conditions will improve. If we keep making it easier and accepting lower standards, pay and conditions will continue to fall.
I'm not going back to work for United at 1993 pay levels, sitting on reserve for another 6 years, 20 days a month. The most I ever made was $74k a year flying 95 hours a month. They would have to at least double that for me to consider returning. Compensation for the inconvenience of being away from my home and family and friends etc.
I'm my own boss now and it's great. I travel when I want to, or stay home every night.
Good luck to all you professional aviators. You deserve better.
But on pilot pay. I think supply and demand are everything. Before I made it to a major I struggled to get any jet job. Then when I finally did all the majors started to hire and our company lost most of their experienced crews. All of a sudden training contracts disappeared. They paid you during training. They paid for your hotel during training etc. The company tried to poach other companies pilots and other companies did the same hiring directly into the Capt seat.
The railway labor act is out of date and needs to go. If you want a free market then it needs to be truly free. If not re-regulate.
The age 65 rule made the long term shortage worse. It stagnated the upward movement of crews and pay and conditions. Pilots like my self went through a double furlough and have left the industry. College grades now choose a better paying and more secure job elsewhere.
We need to restrict the number of pilots coming into the industry by making it harder to get a license. Higher academic and experience standards. We need to regain public respect for the profession. Then let supply and demand take it's toll. Pay and conditions will improve. If we keep making it easier and accepting lower standards, pay and conditions will continue to fall.
I'm not going back to work for United at 1993 pay levels, sitting on reserve for another 6 years, 20 days a month. The most I ever made was $74k a year flying 95 hours a month. They would have to at least double that for me to consider returning. Compensation for the inconvenience of being away from my home and family and friends etc.
I'm my own boss now and it's great. I travel when I want to, or stay home every night.
Good luck to all you professional aviators. You deserve better.
Carl
06-10-2011, 07:56 AM
#76
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 22
Problem is that 90% of "airline pilots" are uptight, white republicans living a blue collar labor existance.....wear a uniform and a name tag....you are blue collar....period..embrace it... go out and ply your craft and quit being closet ceo's....college degrees in the last 18 years are nothing more than the high school of your predecessors
Thank you in advance.
Carl
06-11-2011, 04:18 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 107
So I started a thread here asking what folks thought a pilot was worth and the mods moved it to Hangar Talk which I find to be incredibly interesting as this is a PilotPay forum but I feel that the thread was buried.
So the question is what's a MAJOR airline pilot worth?
Joe Peck
UAL IADFO-75/76
So the question is what's a MAJOR airline pilot worth?
Joe Peck
UAL IADFO-75/76
Philosophical answer: Can you put a price on pilots who are responsible for transporting lives safely from point A to point B?
Realistic answer: The “worth” is based on how hard pilots are willing to negotiate collectively to achieve whatever number it is they feel they are “worth”.
-jc23
06-11-2011, 04:40 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
But this applies to so many professions where certain actions have an effect on people. Even with the example above, train engineers/conductors, cruise ship captains, heck, even taxi drivers all have responsibility for transporting people from point A to point B safely. What are they worth. Does it matter the number of people carried?
In other professions - what is an architect who designs bridges that people travel over daily or skyscrapers where people work worth. The engineers or mechanics who work on those airplanes or engines?
Like you said - philosophical discussions where there probably isn't even a right answer
Your practical answer seem to be correct though. What you can bargain.
USMCFLYR
06-11-2011, 06:01 PM
#79
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,633
Joe,
Philosophical answer: Can you put a price on pilots who are responsible for transporting lives safely from point A to point B?
Realistic answer: The “worth” is based on how hard pilots are willing to negotiate collectively to achieve whatever number it is they feel they are “worth”.
-jc23
Philosophical answer: Can you put a price on pilots who are responsible for transporting lives safely from point A to point B?
Realistic answer: The “worth” is based on how hard pilots are willing to negotiate collectively to achieve whatever number it is they feel they are “worth”.
-jc23
On the other hand, if the pilot negotitates too much for their pay does that mean they are really worth it? Or does that mean they have mgmt in a position where the alternative is an unrecoverable financial position(bankruptcy)? Or indirectly a failure by receding market share because of increased CASM, and watching LCCs move in to take that territory once dominated by the previous carrier?
I really wished we all got paid the same for a respective equip/seat. That would make things a lot easier in regards to determining success and failure of management teams.
06-11-2011, 06:12 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 107
So true.
But this applies to so many professions where certain actions have an effect on people. Even with the example above, train engineers/conductors, cruise ship captains, heck, even taxi drivers all have responsibility for transporting people from point A to point B safely. What are they worth. Does it matter the number of people carried?
In other professions - what is an architect who designs bridges that people travel over daily or skyscrapers where people work worth. The engineers or mechanics who work on those airplanes or engines?
Like you said - philosophical discussions where there probably isn't even a right answer
Your practical answer seem to be correct though. What you can bargain.
USMCFLYR
But this applies to so many professions where certain actions have an effect on people. Even with the example above, train engineers/conductors, cruise ship captains, heck, even taxi drivers all have responsibility for transporting people from point A to point B safely. What are they worth. Does it matter the number of people carried?
In other professions - what is an architect who designs bridges that people travel over daily or skyscrapers where people work worth. The engineers or mechanics who work on those airplanes or engines?
Like you said - philosophical discussions where there probably isn't even a right answer
Your practical answer seem to be correct though. What you can bargain.
USMCFLYR
-jc23
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