What Happens if this TA Passes?
06-05-2012, 03:03 PM
#1
veut gagner à la loterie
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
What Happens if this TA Passes?
We don't seem to have a what if this TA passes thread. So outside of the pay rate tables and contract language, thoughts on Delta's next moves if this passes?
06-05-2012, 03:05 PM
#2
veut gagner à la loterie
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I'll give one. After securing 88 717s, maybe a few more, 70 more 76-seaters and bringing the fleet total for the 90s, there will be more than enough lift and "right sizing" of the fleet to cause the ROI on upgrading the 88 cockpits to be deemed to expensive.
They've been evaluating the ROI on that for almost 2 years and when you press for an answer it is "we're trying to evaluate if this is worthwhile." Well, to me the evaluation is based on this TA.
They'd rather have 175 additional jets that give them a 160 seat, 117 seat and 82 seat mix than to have 117 jets that seat 149 passengers and possibly require 120ish to B/E. So that would mean in 2020 the 88s are parked.
And unfortunately in that scenario, we'll replace 117 mainline jets with 105 mainline jets.
That's my guess. Feel free to give yours pro or con.
They've been evaluating the ROI on that for almost 2 years and when you press for an answer it is "we're trying to evaluate if this is worthwhile." Well, to me the evaluation is based on this TA.
They'd rather have 175 additional jets that give them a 160 seat, 117 seat and 82 seat mix than to have 117 jets that seat 149 passengers and possibly require 120ish to B/E. So that would mean in 2020 the 88s are parked.
And unfortunately in that scenario, we'll replace 117 mainline jets with 105 mainline jets.
That's my guess. Feel free to give yours pro or con.
06-05-2012, 03:31 PM
#3
Doing Nothing
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,316
The TA passes and then an AE will come out late summer early fall and hopefully I can get reinstated as the 88B plug in ATL and stop wasting my day watching movies on SC in a crappy house full of people I don't know in Queens. That would make my life happier.
Last edited by cni187; 06-05-2012 at 03:57 PM.
06-05-2012, 03:42 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
What happens is that we go to work, and we perform to standards; no more, no less. We live with a TA that was designed to pass, but not to motivate, or to inspire excellence. If anyone of us does a really good job, we do it for the personal satisfaction.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
06-05-2012, 03:54 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,594
Originally Posted by Sink r8
What happens is that we go to work, and we perform to standards; no more, no less. We live with a TA that was designed to pass, but not to motivate, or to inspire excellence. If anyone of us does a really good job, we do it for the personal satisfaction.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
06-05-2012, 03:54 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by Sink r8
What happens is that we go to work, and we perform to standards; no more, no less. We live with a TA that was designed to pass, but not to motivate, or to inspire excellence. If anyone of us does a really good job, we do it for the personal satisfaction.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
You have been selling the he11 out of this thing. You sir and your used car salesmanship are the antithesis of excellence. Goodday.
06-05-2012, 04:01 PM
#7
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Sink r8
What happens is that we go to work, and we perform to standards; no more, no less. We live with a TA that was designed to pass, but not to motivate, or to inspire excellence. If anyone of us does a really good job, we do it for the personal satisfaction.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
We trade in unrealistic hopes of something truly great for the reality of something useful, but not much more. Just as before, we anxiously wait to see how the fleet plan unfolds, and how the industry moves forward (or not).
We realize all TA's we've ever seen are controversial, and only judged in hindsight. Because I don't know what the economy will do, I can't tell you whether this is viewed as a gross failure to get enough, or a specatcular victory. All I can say now is that this contract has very modest upside if Delta does great, but conversely has very solid downside protections we don't enjoy today, in Sections 1 and 3.
We step up whenever opportunity arises, and we make modest gains. Hopefuly modest gain after modest gain, after modest gain. We dream big, but cash in small achievements.
We sleep at night.
The Restoration Plus Inflation crowd starts drinking heavily. The ALPA crowd quietly mopes around. The DPA continues to [deleted] up everything they touch. The DTW reps vote no on everything and anything that might be controversial: never for, never against; quite the contrary.
TSquare argues for LBP.
Underboob returns.
At home, the children play, and our respective wives await our return with a new honeydew list.
We smile a contented smile, for all is well is the world.
06-05-2012, 04:06 PM
#8
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
I'll give one. After securing 88 717s, maybe a few more, 70 more 76-seaters and bringing the fleet total for the 90s, there will be more than enough lift and "right sizing" of the fleet to cause the ROI on upgrading the 88 cockpits to be deemed to expensive.
They've been evaluating the ROI on that for almost 2 years and when you press for an answer it is "we're trying to evaluate if this is worthwhile." Well, to me the evaluation is based on this TA.
They'd rather have 175 additional jets that give them a 160 seat, 117 seat and 82 seat mix than to have 117 jets that seat 149 passengers and possibly require 120ish to B/E. So that would mean in 2020 the 88s are parked.
And unfortunately in that scenario, we'll replace 117 mainline jets with 105 mainline jets.
That's my guess. Feel free to give yours pro or con.
They've been evaluating the ROI on that for almost 2 years and when you press for an answer it is "we're trying to evaluate if this is worthwhile." Well, to me the evaluation is based on this TA.
They'd rather have 175 additional jets that give them a 160 seat, 117 seat and 82 seat mix than to have 117 jets that seat 149 passengers and possibly require 120ish to B/E. So that would mean in 2020 the 88s are parked.
And unfortunately in that scenario, we'll replace 117 mainline jets with 105 mainline jets.
That's my guess. Feel free to give yours pro or con.
But.. if you want to go with that, with no TA, we will need fewer pilots. Pump and dump is a real concern because... as you said.. the lift will NOT be needed because of the large (in number) RJ fleet. Furlough will entirely be possible.
With the TA, block hour ratios must be maintained. Even if the 88s are parked, the company must fly the remaining airplanes enough to maintain that ratio OR start parking RJs. That ensures jobs will be maintained. (Of course the 717s are paid less because they are smaller.... oh no I di'int) And if they furlough one... single... pilot.. they have to remove 6 seats from ALL the 76s. THAT is punitive, and THAT is some serious furlough protection...
06-05-2012, 04:16 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by Jack Bauer
And so the "I never promised anything" post is made to point to later when things go sideways after this POS TA is voted in.
You have been selling the he11 out of this thing. You sir and your used car salesmanship are the antithesis of excellence. Goodday.
You have been selling the he11 out of this thing. You sir and your used car salesmanship are the antithesis of excellence. Goodday.
I think your post is more revealing of your own mindset than anything to do with me. I supect it shows the way you approach your ALPA/DPA mission. Where your paranoia is getting the better of you is that you conclude that a customer that doesn't buy your sales pitch, or anyone else that has an argument to make is necessarily a competitor engaged in similar practices.
What you fail to account for is the independence and awareness of many, probably most, of us here on APC. It's obvious to me some are affiliated, and for the most part, they're honest about it. Conversely, it's obvious many of us are favorite targets, simply because we have a different perspective, or draw different conclusions.
If you can't handle differences of opinions, let me suggest an internet forum isn't the best place for you to hang out. You don't seem suited for open-ended conversation, where people might accidentally disagree with you. And this TA discussion, as important as it is, is bound to attract a whole bunch of people.
Meanwhile, I'll update my Ignore List. If you can't discuss this stuff intelligently, or with respect, please do the same.
06-05-2012, 04:21 PM
#10
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Sink r8
Disclaimers and selling? That's what you think is going on with my posts?
I think your post is more revealing of your own mindset than anything to do with me. I supect it shows the way you approach your ALPA/DPA mission. Where your paranoia is getting the better of you is that you conclude that a customer that doesn't buy your sales pitch, or anyone else that has an argument to make is necessarily a competitor engaged in similar practices.
What you fail to account for is the independence and awareness of many, probably most, of us here on APC. It's obvious to me some are affiliated, and for the most part, they're honest about it. Conversely, it's obvious many of us are favorite targets, simply because we have a different perspective, or draw different conclusions.
If you can't handle differences of opinions, let me suggest an internet forum isn't the best place for you to hang out. You don't seem suited for open-ended conversation, where people might accidentally disagree with you. And this TA discussion, as important as it is, is bound to attract a whole bunch of people.
Meanwhile, I'll update my Ignore List. If you can't discuss this stuff intelligently, or with respect, please do the same.
I think your post is more revealing of your own mindset than anything to do with me. I supect it shows the way you approach your ALPA/DPA mission. Where your paranoia is getting the better of you is that you conclude that a customer that doesn't buy your sales pitch, or anyone else that has an argument to make is necessarily a competitor engaged in similar practices.
What you fail to account for is the independence and awareness of many, probably most, of us here on APC. It's obvious to me some are affiliated, and for the most part, they're honest about it. Conversely, it's obvious many of us are favorite targets, simply because we have a different perspective, or draw different conclusions.
If you can't handle differences of opinions, let me suggest an internet forum isn't the best place for you to hang out. You don't seem suited for open-ended conversation, where people might accidentally disagree with you. And this TA discussion, as important as it is, is bound to attract a whole bunch of people.
Meanwhile, I'll update my Ignore List. If you can't discuss this stuff intelligently, or with respect, please do the same.
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