I agree. Trading work rules (more productivity) and allowing the regional's to get their second wind with large RJ's is extremely short sited. One thing this industry has proven in the last 15 years; representation is not what it should be and pilots will buy off on management talking points (ie Mr. Campbell) as issues through the union (the new management mouthpiece). There is no long term strategy to make the job comfortable while maximizing time with family and increased compensation without working harder/spending more time on the road.

Instead, we keep allowing "productivity" to get pushed up. There is no question, THIS contract (not the next one or the next one after that) is/was our best shot to make some real improvements. There should be/have been a 5 or 6 hour minimum daily guarantee, no more large RJ's (rather a reduction of all RJ's large and small) and a big boost in pay and not more work rule give aways. A lot of guys have now officially been trained to buy off on the "vote yes for the first offer, the second will be worse" mantra. All these things added together spell a dismal future for this profession specifically for those with more than 5-10 years left. Many will keep the blinders on though and jump at the first pay raise, all other things be damned.

 

Here's the rush, IMO....Merge with Hawaiian....Fleet match is perfect.

Cost is doable for Delta.

For us narrowbody guys....say hello to more stagnation. Same strategy as with NWA....merge lists/airplanes....reduce total fleet size......don't hire as pilots retire.

This "model" has been very good to RA.

I have a feeling our new "workrules" under this TA is very similar to Hawaiian's

With this TA our list is already being shrunk by 300 (Workrules) and maybe 250 (Retirements) in preparation for the merger.

In addition, because of the Hawaiian fleet makeup (except the 717 pilots)....I expect them to benefit greatly on the SLI at our expense.

 

While that might be true, it is also just as likely to not be true.

Management probably will ask the ALPA team what went wrong. It is not like they want to repeat the same effort with the same result. Management will not just ask "how much more?, and open the checkbook. It will be up to ALPA to convince management that they (ALPA) has to really fulfill their responsibility as a bargaining agent and meet the pilots needs, and that the company has to compensate at the appropriate level.

And yes, it will be up to the MEC to come up with the next plan if this is turned down. That is the job.

 

DALPA has not 'prepared' the pilot group for any kind of a fight. That takes years, and they aren't going to do it this time around. Absent that, what real choice do we have here? I don't like the T/A for all the reasons mentioned. The -only- thing I like about it, it's quick. A 4% raise in two weeks, vs. waiting 2 years for...?

This is not my first Section 6, in fact, I think it's my 4th. They have always taken 2-3 years. BUT they have also always, every single one, been a trade of concessions in some areas, for what ever gains were achieved in others. Even in C2K we gave up stuff. I have never voted Yes for any of the contracts we got to vote on, starting with POS 96. I find it ironic that I may vote yes for this pos.

I have always supported DALPA, I've volunteerd to help out as a P2P type then, and now. Again, I dont' like this TA at all, it does almost nothing for my demographic (senior Wide Body Capt., with no DB retirement money) but I see little 'choice' given the fact that our (lack of) leadership has not prepared the pilot group to fight for anything more. There's been no Family Awareness, no Strike Prep. work, No media coverage, hell, they won't even mention the word "Restoration". Their battle cry is, "Look at American..."

Well I've been looking at American since they started the B scale in 1984! They aren't even a ALPA carrier, so WHY did ALPA follow them with B Scales at every ALPA carrier?? Why did ALPA allow RJ's to fly mainline routes? Why didn't ALPA call for an SOS when Frank Lorenzo was taking apart Eastern? Or after 9-11, when UAL and US Air lost their pensions? ALPA National has become a political organization that will not ever 'rock the boat' in DC.

Whether that's because they have been told by Congressmen and Senators, "Hey, shut up, or we'll change the Cabotage rules and you guys will be toast..." or because they have been living in DC so long, and looking to move up the ladder, into Gubmint, or into one of those lucrative Consulting jobs on K street (like Duh Wayne Worthless, or like Randy Babbit) they have not shown a will to fight since deregulation, in 1978.

So, given the total lack of leadership and preparation, and total capitulation to management, by both National, and our MEC, I see little choice here other than voting yes, and then...wait for it...

"We'll get'm Next Time!"

Yeah, sure we will.

 

I agree, I think that is where we're headed too. Plus maybe some chunks of AA, but what do I know. Remember we play checkers, RA and the boys play chess and it could be something that none of us thought of

As far as a Hawaiian SLI, YOU GUYS set that merger president. Guys hired after you, younger than you senior to you.......nawwww never happen. I kid I kid.....the only good news is they are a small group. But, as a SEA guy I agree that it won't help.....especially on the west coast!

Ferd

 

T2,

Glad you spotted that. I make no bones that I am not for this TA. However, I'm looking for something other than those points that I mentioned. Every document from the MEC has been positive with a little bit of fear thrown in. However, in any contract your agent (think real estate or litigation) should point out the pros and cons so you can make an informed decision. That's what I'm missing and asking for.

You are incredibly good at demeaning others that don't agree with you. I can only hope that you don't run your cockpit especially during an OE like that. You have reached your decision by a process which I'm hoping you can rationally explain. Your comment on another thread that the pay rates are a "Homerun" was frankly absurd. We don't even equal SWA until 2015 and that's IF they don't have a raise between now and then, and doesn't factor in their premium pay or other work rules.

FIIGMO made a really good argument and I've said I live with this contract if I must. I just don't wish at this point to help it along.

 

Your post is very intriguing. I would like to ask you a couple of things. Are you fNWA or DAL? Because if you were DAL, and the first 3 years were your best, then you must have flown a TON of greenslips whilewe had guys on furlough, because there is no way that those years could possibly have been better than the time right after C2K was signed unless you only flew about 10 hours/month... And if you were fNWA, then how can you possibly compare your tenure at NWA prior to the merger as anything other than horrendous and you should be thanking your lucky stars for the merger because that would make it pretty obvious that our pre merger contracts were light years ahead of ANYTHING you had at NWA... Or maybe I am missing something. (My disclaimer here is that I am not trying to start any merger foodfight again, I just do not understandhow you can say either way that your first 3 years on the property wer the best...)

Next. Since you have been through at least 2 mergers, I would think that by now you would have realized that in the merger world, 1+1 does NOT = 2, no matter how management teams and Wall Street try to spin it. It just doesn't. So the question that looms large in my mind is how do we get the most value out of one? Management does not need our help or cooperation to pull off the business deal, no matter how much we think otherwise. Look at SWA/AT... AWA/USAir... the list is really endless. So ax yourself.. IF management is going to do a deal.. and I think we are pretty much in agreement that there IS another merger on the short term horizon, how do we extract as much out of that deal as possible?

You are looking at small potatoes in some areas.. in large ones in others. My contention is that we take this deal, (like Ferd says, hold your nose and vote for it) and see how much more we can extract in the upcoming merger talks. If we are onboard and have captured real value, then there will be more to capture when the deal is announced. OR, we can bow up and say no, and be totally left out in the cold, trying to recapture what we just lost when the deal is brought before us. You really need look no further than NWA/DAL merger.. we said no once.. and what happened? We lost about $250 million. We had another chance though and were able to get a pretty good deal, but where would we be right now had we signed that first deal? How much further down the field would we be.. right now?

Do the math on the pay.
Read the furlough protections
Understand how the RJs come on board and how that process recaptures mainline flying.
This is a good deal, and it sets the foundation for an even better one in 3 years, but probably even sooner when/if a merger is announced, because once again, management will want us onboard to smooth the transition..

 

Interesting point. It plays right into one of my favorite Churchill Quotes "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (Any paraphrasing mistakes are purely mine). RA is smart, wicked smart, so we may not get a better deal. But maybe, just maybe our negotiators learned something in the online debate on this TA which was greater than any previous TA and are able to tighten up some things. Either way, it's a gamble and maybe one not worth betting. Interesting.

 

I've only got 4 years left; but, I ain't gonna "jump" at the little raise and let "all other things be damned" -- voting NO.

 

Since you've decided to start this -- I had a better QOL at NWA than I've had here and it's still going downhill. Thanks.