CAL EWR

Agreed and never in doubt with me for both Joe and Jan.

jetblaster

>>>>However, I think that it sets a very dangerous precedence when governments (of any country) start any aviation disaster investigation with fingerpointing and threats of criminal prosecution, instead of investigating to find the cause and prevent it from happening again, especially if the investigators want full cooperation from all parties... The fact that the controllers have clammed up shows exactly why it's imperative not to point fingers and toss claims of "murder charges" around during an active investigation.

Finally, if you know anything about this business, accident investigations take months, if not years to come to a final determination. Do you expect these pilots to be confined until then?>>>

Aside from the personal emotion of having fellow pilots--and friends--in what can only be described as "hostile custody" that violates any concept of due process, the post I have quoted above hits the crux of the issue: we absolutely CANNOT allow whatever banana-republic, third-world corrupt poltical process to rule the day on any incident or accident that happens to us while performing our duties world-wide. It is an outrage that the feds have allowed this incarceration to happen at all, let alone for 50 days. Brazilian pilots in the same situation in the US would have been home within hours of the incident. The fact that our guys are held against their will while the ATC controllers are home on vacation is just more evidence of the corruption in this process.

Jetblaster

fireman0174

Brazil Court Refuses To Return Passports Of Two US Pilots
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
November 19, 2006 11:38 a.m.

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP)--A Brazilian federal court has refused to return the passports of the two U.S. pilots of an executive jet that collided with a commercial airliner, an accident that killed 154 people, the government news agency said.

Judge Candido Ribeiro of the First Federal Regional Tribunal said the pilots must remain in Brazil while authorities investigate the Sept. 29 collision of a Boeing 737-800 (BA) operated by Brazilian airline Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA (GOL) with a Brazilian-made Legacy executive jet operated by Long Island-based ExcelAire, Agencia Brasil reported late Saturday.

The Gol airliner plunged into Brazil's dense Amazon jungle, killing all 154 people aboard. The Legacy landed safely with all seven people aboard unharmed.

Authorities seized the passports of the pilots of the Legacy so they can't leave the country. Prosecutors have said that Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, N.Y., and Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton Beach, N.Y., could be charged with involuntary manslaughter if they are found responsible for the crash.

Warning systems on both planes failed before the collision, an Air Force investigator said Thursday.

Robert_2006

Jetblaster (and all you who are doing criticism about Brazilian governor), I respect your opinion about the pilots situation, but use stereotypes as "banana-republic" and "third-world corrupt political process" is to be at least imature or ignorant. Each country has its own political process, USA are not the center of the world, in which everybody must base minds and acts.

What do you think it's more important? To make justice with the families of 150 people killed by an (supposed) error, or the comfort of two living and healthful young pilots? Poor then, they are confined in a room in front of the sunny and full-of-pretty-women Copacabana beach... And the dead, where they are now? Rotting in the coffin. And their families? How do you think they are felling now?

YES, Brazilians have all rights to do what they want to find the real culprits. And if their justice is different of US one, you must respect this. USA are afraid of all things that can threaten its supposed superiosity. Cuba incommodate USA because they have courage to be different, to have a opposed economic regime. When you are afraid of someone or something, really you are felling you are weak and you can be surpassed by.

Brazil is bigger than USA in size, and it has the ninth largest economy in the world (according to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank). It's no more a third-world country, but an emerging economy like China, South Korea, Central and Eastern European countries, etc.

If to you all south and central american countries are the same damn third-world banana-republics full of people talking spanish and dancing with a sombrero on the head, it means you know NOTHING about them. If you don't like these countries, because you consider they have wrong things, or inferior things, you must try to change it, or help it to change, not just saying stupid words like this, but effectively MAKING SOMETHING.

B757200ER

Robert,

I would not criticize an accident investigation if it were conducted under ICAO Annex 13 rules, signed by Brazil, which allows not only for fair and due process, but also prohibiting unlawful detention of crewmembers who were involved in an accident. The mere spectre of investigating an aviation accident is to find facts, determine probable cause and prevent it from ever happening again. In other words, to make the aviation system SAFER for all concerned, whatever country they may be from. I think the record so far shows that Brazil has taken a very hard-handed, biased and belligerent approach to investigating this awful disaster, and detaining pilots who were involved is not helping the supposed 'investigation', if in fact there is one. For the information that has been released thus far, I would say the Brazilian government, Brazilian media and Brazilian people have already blamed these two pilots for an accident they may NOT have caused. Very simply put, as a former aircraft accident investigator myself---the FACTS will determine probable cause, not speculation, estimates or opinions by people who are uninformed. And detaining two key, credible witnesses who may unlock part of the key of this crash is not going to help matters any.

In this country, if pilots from Brazil were involved in an aircraft accident, they would be interviewed, questioned and asked for statements. They would then be an integral part of the subsequent post-mortem of the crash, and key firgures in the field investigation to determine the facts. They may be asked to testify in an NTSB hearing, if necessary. They would NOT be detained, under house-arrest in a hotel or have their passports taken away, much less being refused permission to leave the country. That is not the professional way to conduct business, especially in an international incident like this. These two pilots are involved, but may be innocent, and are being held AGAINST their will. It is not right, and most certainly against international aviation law to deny them due process.

Which approach do you condone?

GotheriK

I'm sure he will be very quick to defend the antiquated and unjust legal system of his country.

Misguided patriotism is the worst.




No, they don't.

If they have "all rights" to do what they please, would it morally justify let's say, swiftly executing the pilots without a trial? Of course not, this is no different. The Brazilian government is trying to jail these pilots for a tragic, and unfortunate accident; something most advanced countries wouldn't do. I guess Brazil isn't as advanced as you'd like to pass off; you have alot of kinks to work out.

Brazil has an obligation to conduct this investigation (as previously mentioned) openly, honestly, and acording to international and ICAO standards. Currently, they are NOT doing so.





Ha! Why should I respect the antiquated, "banana republic", monkey-trial system of Brazil. Let me be the first to say "******" that. Respect is earned, not entitled.

FlyerJosh

B757200ER,

Nice post.

FlyerJosh

Robert,

If it is found that BRAZILIAN citizens are at fault in this accident, and their actions were the direct cause of the collision, will they be treated the same way?

Brazil's ministry of defense has painted these pilots as irresponsible and reckless, when they were simply following the instructions of air traffic controllers from your country.

Accidents such as these are horrible events, however they are just that- accidents. Nobody wanted this collision to occur, certainly not these pilots. When an collision between two vehicles results in an accidental fatality in Brazil, does the government rush to obtain "justice"?

Robert_2006

B757200ER, I agree with you, international laws must be followed, if Brazil signed these rules, they must to follow them. What I questioned on my last post is the unintelligent words posted by JETBLASTER. When you don't agree with something, you must show valid arguments, not offenses or silly adjectives.

FlyerJosh, I'm not saying I agree with Brazil's ministry of defense. In fact, they only can say something with proved facts, not supposed ones.

These attitudes of the Brazilian governor may have a subtletly reason. In the past, Lula was communist and a fiery Anti-American activist (remember, Hugo Chaves and Fidel Castro are his personal friends). Even if today Lula is apparently "tamed" and seems to be an USA "friend", his governor may be following that orientation (but I cant affirm this).

I hope justice happens as soon as possible, and if these two pilots are not the culprits, I really hope they can come back home soon to take back their lives and to forget this terrible accident.

FlyerJosh

Robert, the issue at hand really should not be "justice". The purpose of any accident investigation should be to prevent such an occurance from happening again.

I truly feel for the families of the passengers on the GOL 737, however the fact remains that this was an unfortunate ACCIDENT. Unless gross negligence is shown, with the intent to cause harm, criminal prosecution is unwarranted and sets dangerous precedence.

Sometimes, there are no "culprits", but instead a terrible sequence of events that all contributed to the accident.