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Old 02-26-2013, 12:04 PM   #1  
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Default Logging IRO flight time???

I recently had a discussion with a fellow coleague and we were talking about logging IRO flight time. Now some guys are logging their IRO time as PIC, while others are logging IRO time as strictly SIC time.

My question is: Is it acceptable to log IRO time as PIC?

Do the Major/Legacy airlines dispute this flight time in the log books?

All our FO's are typed and qualified in the aircraft and are flying in the left seat, but are not the one's that signed their names as the PIC.

My concern is that when we go to an interview (i.e. SWA, UAL, UPS, FEDEX) are they going to frown upon this practice??

Such a grey area......

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:16 PM   #2  
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Originally Posted by seabass View Post
I recently had a discussion with a fellow coleague and we were talking about logging IRO flight time. Now some guys are logging their IRO time as PIC, while others are logging IRO time as strictly SIC time.

My question is: Is it acceptable to log IRO time as PIC?

Do the Major/Legacy airlines dispute this flight time in the log books?

All our FO's are typed and qualified in the aircraft and are flying in the left seat, but are not the one's that signed their names as the PIC.

My concern is that when we go to an interview (i.e. SWA, UAL, UPS, FEDEX) are they going to frown upon this practice??

Such a grey area......

Seabass
Like you, at the company I work for (L-CAL/New UAL), all FO's are type rated in the aircraft that they are presently staffed and flying.

I think you answered your own question ^^above^^.

Case in point.....When one of our B777's goes from EWR-PVG, they most often under regular operations take off with 1 Capt & 3 FO's. The Capt signs (actually "E-Signs") the release as PIC prior to the flight. He is the PIC from takeoff to landing no matter if he's in the bunk snoozing, or up front in the big seat.

If you're operating in the States for a US carrier, I'd get further clarification (maybe from your POI) before you log IRO time as PIC while not being the one who signs as PIC prior to the flight......Very slippery slope in any potential future interview.

Best of luck.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:33 PM   #3  
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If you're not signing for the airplane, you are not the PIC. Regardless, of your type rating.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:36 PM   #4  
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As long as you are qualified then you can log it as PIC. You do not have to be the one who signs for the jet. You just have to be type rated and the sole manipulator of the controls. Logging PIC and acting PIC are two different things. How would an employer view it? Only the employer can answer that but it is perfectly legal to log it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:37 PM   #5  
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If there are 3-4 pilots then there is PIC, SIC, TIC, and FIC. If the PIC is back sleeping, then there is an "acting PIC". They are not "PIC", just acting while the CA is sleeping. I didn't log my time as PIC or TIC or FIC. All my time was SIC, even when I was not second in command. I'm not making a new column. When I sat for hours in the left seat, I was SIC. I would have never logged any PIC time for a plane I didn't sign for.

I see no gray area. I would not hire anyone who tries to pass their time as an FO in any aircraft as PIC.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:45 PM   #6  
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From an FAA interpretation..


While it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. If the pilot is designated as PIC by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385(c), that person is PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated may also log that flight as PIC.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:48 PM   #7  
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Question IRO

I'm leaning more on the safe side of this and saying it's ALL SIC time, but tempted to log that PIC time.
We fly with 1 Capt. and 3 FOs. I've been logging all my time as SIC, but need 600 hours of Multi PIC to complete my 1,000 hrs. multi Jet PIC.

Mmmmmm very tempting indeed.....
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:37 PM   #8  
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Originally Posted by seabass View Post
My concern is that when we go to an interview (i.e. SWA, UAL, UPS, FEDEX) are they going to frown upon this practice??
YES

Quote:
Originally Posted by seabass View Post
I'm leaning more on the safe side of this and saying it's ALL SIC time, but tempted to log that PIC time.
We fly with 1 Capt. and 3 FOs. I've been logging all my time as SIC, but need 600 hours of Multi PIC to complete my 1,000 hrs. multi Jet PIC.

Mmmmmm very tempting indeed.....
As mentioned here, and in about a billion other threads, you CAN log it.

But regarding the bold carriers, and more than likely EVERY other carrier, it won't be accepted as PIC on their app.

Because again, as mentioned, what's legal per FAR ISN'T the same as what future employer counts as PIC time.

Here's from FedEx's app;

Quote:
Pilot in Command hours for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. Instructor Time while included in your PIC total is broken out further on this form.
And here's from SW's app;

Quote:
PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander n the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered.

Last edited by xjtguy; 02-26-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:06 PM   #9  
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Very simple. Log your time for the position stated on the release. As you are not listed as PIC, you should, for ethical reasons not put those hours under the PIC column in your logbook.

SWA and FED EX are savy folks concerning this topic..

*121.385***Composition of flight crew.
(a) No certificate holder may operate an airplane with less than the minimum flight crew in the airworthiness certificate or the airplane Flight Manual approved for that type airplane and required by this part for the kind of operation being conducted.

(b) In any case in which this part requires the performance of two or more functions for which an airman certificate is necessary, that requirement is not satisfied by the performance of multiple functions at the same time by one airman.

Quote:
(c) The minimum pilot crew is two pilots and the certificate holder shall designate one pilot as pilot in command and the other second in command.
. Pretty clear

(d) On each flight requiring a flight engineer at least one flight crewmember, other than the flight engineer, must be qualified to provide emergency performance of the flight engineer's functions for the safe completion of the flight if the flight engineer becomes ill or is otherwise incapacitated. A pilot need not hold a flight engineer's certificate to perform the flight engineer's functions in such a situation.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19212, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121-178, 47 FR 13316, Mar. 29, 1982; Amdt. 121-256, 61 FR 30434, June 14, 1996]
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #10  
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It is perfectly legal to log this as PIC in the eyes of the FAA. Would I log it though? No. You are logging the time to get a job..not an additional license. It is pointless to log it if it would not be accepted by a potential employer on your app.
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