View Poll Results: Affirmative action, where do you stand?
None - free market of labor
86
80.37%
Racial - assitance only for racial minorities
4
3.74%
Gender - Assistance only to women
0
0%
Gender/Race - Statis Quo
6
5.61%
$$$$ - based soley on fincial need / economic background
11
10.28%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll
Affirmative action survey..
11-26-2006, 11:19 PM
#31
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by shackone
Good point.
I've never understood the wisdom in correcting a past injustice by perpetrating one in the present.
I've never understood the wisdom in correcting a past injustice by perpetrating one in the present.
In a perfect world, we wouldn't need to. In a perfect world the past injustices would never have occurred.
All:
It's not a perfect world, and affirmative action, in it's PRESENT form, is far from perfect. It's a relic, just like all of those other topics, abortion, gay-marriage,flag-burning, etc. Their sole purpose is to divide and get politicians re-elected. Affirmative-Action isn't the answer, any race/gender based entitlements aren't, but recent history dictates that those with power only want more power, and even feel sorry for themselves when they don't have it handed them. I wish those who hate it would present a better solution than "let's ban it!". I'd love to have a system that helps the less fortunate in our society, and not the less white or less male. There I go day-dreaming again. Politics is a world of absolutes lately. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
11-27-2006, 05:43 AM
#32
Indian Takeout Driver
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FAR part 347 (91+121+135)
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Onfinal
No need to fire away, your comments are sensible, reasonable and a quiet admission of the things said when these minority groups aren't within earshot.
Unfortunately a misunderstanding of what affirmative action is, and what it isn't, is a common issue with these discussions.
1) Legal Affirmative Action doesn't require the hiring of less qualified individuals to meet required quotas. What it does say is that a company must demonstrate that it has taken "affirmative action" to reach out to, and hire qualified individuals from groups that have been historically underrepresented due to racist/sexist/ethnocentric policies. Any hiring of a person just because they are of a certain racial group is pseudo affirmative action.
2) Legal Affirmative Action requires that the individual must meet the qualifications of the job. Of course some qualifications are more subjective than others. In pilot hiring once you meet the minimum requirements, and pass a sim ride everything else is subjective. That's why its so funny when some of us on this forum cry "I was more qualified" everyone that meets the minimum requirements is qualified, if the requirements are 1000/100 and you have 5000/500 your as qualified as the person with 1000/100. In fact, the guy in my training class that flunked out was one of the higher time pilots.
3) Realize that pseudo Affirmative Action has been around for a very long time, and has raised the wealth, stature, and economic vitality of many of the people and their decendents helped by it. Is anyone here familar with Marlon Green, an ex-military Air force pilot that was denied a job with a major airline because of psuedo of Affirmative Action. Do a wikipedia search for his name. You may learn something!
Onfinal
Unfortunately a misunderstanding of what affirmative action is, and what it isn't, is a common issue with these discussions.
1) Legal Affirmative Action doesn't require the hiring of less qualified individuals to meet required quotas. What it does say is that a company must demonstrate that it has taken "affirmative action" to reach out to, and hire qualified individuals from groups that have been historically underrepresented due to racist/sexist/ethnocentric policies. Any hiring of a person just because they are of a certain racial group is pseudo affirmative action.
2) Legal Affirmative Action requires that the individual must meet the qualifications of the job. Of course some qualifications are more subjective than others. In pilot hiring once you meet the minimum requirements, and pass a sim ride everything else is subjective. That's why its so funny when some of us on this forum cry "I was more qualified" everyone that meets the minimum requirements is qualified, if the requirements are 1000/100 and you have 5000/500 your as qualified as the person with 1000/100. In fact, the guy in my training class that flunked out was one of the higher time pilots.
3) Realize that pseudo Affirmative Action has been around for a very long time, and has raised the wealth, stature, and economic vitality of many of the people and their decendents helped by it. Is anyone here familar with Marlon Green, an ex-military Air force pilot that was denied a job with a major airline because of psuedo of Affirmative Action. Do a wikipedia search for his name. You may learn something!
Onfinal
Good points, but I recall in the military, where the physical tests are administered as part of the screening for certain positions, and the grading is on a scale on 0-100 points per event; a score of 100 points for a woman required X, while a score of 100 in the same event for a man required 3X.. in the end, both score 300 points on their PT test, and both are deemed equally "qualified" as the test is (what's known in the social engineering business) "Gender Normed" .. how does that fit into the above categories?
11-27-2006, 05:58 AM
#33
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
I actually got in a huge arguement with my ex over this. I stated that questions asking what your race is should be removed from college applications. This should apply here too.
I was wondering how often they update the numbers since the ethnicity of the population is changing overall.
I was wondering how often they update the numbers since the ethnicity of the population is changing overall.
11-27-2006, 07:18 AM
#34
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by A320fumes
Politics is a world of absolutes lately. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Are you absolutely alive, or absolutely dead?
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
.
11-27-2006, 07:26 AM
#35
Indian Takeout Driver
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FAR part 347 (91+121+135)
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by TonyC
I noticed that you were quite flippant in comparing abortion to flag-burning, and that you're quick to poo-poo the concept of absolutes, so I thought I'd toss you a question for thought.
Are you absolutely alive, or absolutely dead?
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
.
Are you absolutely alive, or absolutely dead?
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
.
11-27-2006, 08:03 AM
#37
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
[quote=A320fumes;85245]Are you absolutely alive, or absolutely dead?
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
Wha?
Didn't mean to poo on anything. Just stating that none of these topics will ever get resolved until we all realize that we don't have a monopoly on the truth.
That was a wierd response to my statement. Was that Nitze, or Fallwell?
.
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
Wha?Didn't mean to poo on anything. Just stating that none of these topics will ever get resolved until we all realize that we don't have a monopoly on the truth.
That was a wierd response to my statement. Was that Nitze, or Fallwell?.
Last edited by A320fumes; 11-27-2006 at 08:04 AM. Reason: sp
11-27-2006, 08:15 AM
#38
Indian Takeout Driver
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FAR part 347 (91+121+135)
Posts: 1,566
[QUOTE=A320fumes;85246]
I think I catch your drive there A320 about moderation, but somethings are indeed black and white, it's not Fallwell only who teaches this, by Pope John Paul II.. let's not get side tracked though.
Originally Posted by A320fumes
Are you absolutely alive, or absolutely dead?
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
Wha?
Didn't mean to poo on anything. Just stating that none of these topics will ever get resolved until we all realize that we don't have a monopoly on the truth.
That was a wierd response to my statement. Was that Nitze, or Fallwell?
.
Or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?
Wha?Didn't mean to poo on anything. Just stating that none of these topics will ever get resolved until we all realize that we don't have a monopoly on the truth.
That was a wierd response to my statement. Was that Nitze, or Fallwell?.
11-27-2006, 08:37 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: C-17 Sim Pilot Inst
Posts: 182
Kudos to all...
The only reason I have continued to read this thread is because it hasn't "devolved" into flame-baiting, rather it's been a reasoned discussion of the issues (how often does that happen here?!?)
Keep up the good work guys!
Dave "ain't missing Browntail" P
P.S. I voted 'none'
Keep up the good work guys!
Dave "ain't missing Browntail" P
P.S. I voted 'none'
Last edited by DaveP2; 11-27-2006 at 08:38 AM. Reason: addition
11-27-2006, 08:39 AM
#40
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
[quote=CE750;85249]
I think I catch your drive there A320 about moderation, but somethings are indeed black and white, it's not Fallwell only who teaches this, by Pope John Paul II.. let's not get side tracked though.
True but VERY, VERY few things are black or white and it's very dangerous for one to think they have a handle on that. Apropos, we agree to disagree and I have no further comment. Godspeed.
Originally Posted by A320fumes
I think I catch your drive there A320 about moderation, but somethings are indeed black and white, it's not Fallwell only who teaches this, by Pope John Paul II.. let's not get side tracked though.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
