The future of the industry
07-23-2013 | 03:44 PM
#31
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,847
Likes: 0
From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Here's some good reading, about how the UAE is going to help the US of A.
What do you suppose they might ask for in return? US Shipping Ports? More access to US Airports? Both?
Be sure to read on down to where they are building a Children's Hospital in Wash. DC. Who's kids might get treated there?
Can you say... Congress?
Joplin Tornado: United Arab Emirates pays millions for rebuilding of Missouri town | Mail Online
I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. This is how it's done in DC.
What do you suppose they might ask for in return? US Shipping Ports? More access to US Airports? Both?
Be sure to read on down to where they are building a Children's Hospital in Wash. DC. Who's kids might get treated there?
Can you say... Congress?
Joplin Tornado: United Arab Emirates pays millions for rebuilding of Missouri town | Mail Online
I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. This is how it's done in DC.
07-23-2013 | 05:00 PM
#32
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
You're barking up the wrong tree again. You cannot fault a guy making six figures at United, Delta, or AA who was furloughed, couldn't get hired elsewhere because no one was hiring, and decides to go to Emirates.
Also in other words, you blacklisting all ex-pat American pilots from getting American pilot jobs here doesn't do a single thing to fix the problem you are complaining about. All it does is restrict a few newhire slots from non-expat pilots. Other than that, nothing is fixed so your solution is dumb.
Also in other words, you blacklisting all ex-pat American pilots from getting American pilot jobs here doesn't do a single thing to fix the problem you are complaining about. All it does is restrict a few newhire slots from non-expat pilots. Other than that, nothing is fixed so your solution is dumb.
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
Last edited by Purple Drank; 07-23-2013 at 05:45 PM.
07-23-2013 | 06:18 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 0
That's where the future of the US airline industry has to be. You either have to compete on product, or price. If you can do both - you'll rule the world.
Look to Europe: RyanAir and easyJet offer the lowest price. The best product - I'll leave that up to Skytrax to sort out. Emirates seems to really be bothering Air France, Lufthansa, and BA though. If they are having a hard time competing on product and/or price with Emirates, then AA, UA, and DL will too.
US legacy carriers are not the cheapest option. They're also not the best product (DL doesn't even offer first class internationally!). If some product differentiation into either low cost or best product doesn't happen soon, I have concerns about the long term viability of the legacy US airlines.
jetBlue is cheaper than any of them, and offers a better product (4 stars). I'm not saying jetBlue is the ideal, but it is an example of the challenge the US legacy carriers face when an airline can offer lower prices AND better service. Either lower the prices (like Spirit and Allegiant), or offer better service (4 stars, like Emirates, or 5 stars, like these carriers).
The 'jack of all trades' approach is dangerous, and may not have a long-term future without government intervention to prevent foreign carriers from making further inroads.
Look to Europe: RyanAir and easyJet offer the lowest price. The best product - I'll leave that up to Skytrax to sort out. Emirates seems to really be bothering Air France, Lufthansa, and BA though. If they are having a hard time competing on product and/or price with Emirates, then AA, UA, and DL will too.
US legacy carriers are not the cheapest option. They're also not the best product (DL doesn't even offer first class internationally!). If some product differentiation into either low cost or best product doesn't happen soon, I have concerns about the long term viability of the legacy US airlines.
jetBlue is cheaper than any of them, and offers a better product (4 stars). I'm not saying jetBlue is the ideal, but it is an example of the challenge the US legacy carriers face when an airline can offer lower prices AND better service. Either lower the prices (like Spirit and Allegiant), or offer better service (4 stars, like Emirates, or 5 stars, like these carriers).
The 'jack of all trades' approach is dangerous, and may not have a long-term future without government intervention to prevent foreign carriers from making further inroads.
07-23-2013 | 09:11 PM
#34
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,259
Likes: 240
From: B737CA
I'm not calling those guys "scabs."
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
First of all, disincentivize a well-qualified pilot from taking a job in the M.E.?! In favor of what? A $21/hour job at Mesa, an ALPA airline that used dirty and illegal tactics to push my airline and 350+ ALPA pilots on the street.... high paid ALPA pilots mind you?
Lets see... airline choices back then - Mesaba and GoJet. Gee..... tough choices there. With Mesaba 1st year FO pay, I still would have been eligible for unemployment to make up the difference between UI and my salary... courtesy of ALPA.
So what will you do for those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own? What are you gonna do for furloughees? Are you gonna take assessments to keep everyone from going to the ME in the spirit of brotherhood? How about place us into similar positions without interviews and without having to start over at below poverty wages?
Wake up! Those going abroad arent your enemy. Stop allowing 75-90 seat jets flown for wages that pay less than unemployment. Stop outsourcing your own flying! If you need to point a finger, point it at pilots going to Mesa, Republic, TransStates, GoJet, Compass, Skywest, Eagle, etc. But more importantly, point the finger at yourself for allowing those subcontractors to have grown like weeds at the expense of well-paying pilot jobs.
I swear, the ignorance and sheer stupidity found among US airline pilots is astounding.
07-23-2013 | 11:16 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,348
Likes: 332
Timbo, not too long ago I flew a Delta 767 across the Atlantic to Europe and I didn't have my own PTV and the food was so-so. Every Emirates flight has a PTV and the food is excellent. If US based airlines can't provide the basic services provided by everyone else in 2013, then maybe it is time to let Emirates fly from Europe to the USA. Fix your product to compete.
Choose to work for our mortal enemies? Emirates or Qatar aren't your mortal enemies.
Your mortal enemies are:
1. Scope clause loosening
2. Increase in 70 seater RJ flying
3. See #1 and #2
4. RLA
5. Management
Don't forget, you voluntarily voted in a 32.5% paycut! Yes, you felt forced and yes there was probably no other choice, BK was inevitable, would have done far worse, etc etc. Dead horse, beaten up.
But stop pointing fingers at EK or QR when the biggest problem lies in pilots HERE and the actions they have taken in the past 20 years in regards to RJs, scope, and concessions/paycuts.
I'm not calling those guys "scabs."
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
Your mortal enemies are:
1. Scope clause loosening
2. Increase in 70 seater RJ flying
3. See #1 and #2
4. RLA
5. Management
Don't forget, you voluntarily voted in a 32.5% paycut! Yes, you felt forced and yes there was probably no other choice, BK was inevitable, would have done far worse, etc etc. Dead horse, beaten up.
But stop pointing fingers at EK or QR when the biggest problem lies in pilots HERE and the actions they have taken in the past 20 years in regards to RJs, scope, and concessions/paycuts.
07-23-2013 | 11:17 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,348
Likes: 332
I refuse to believe you're this stupid. No offense.
First of all, disincentivize a well-qualified pilot from taking a job in the M.E.?! In favor of what? A $21/hour job at Mesa, an ALPA airline that used dirty and illegal tactics to push my airline and 350+ ALPA pilots on the street.... high paid ALPA pilots mind you?
Lets see... airline choices back then - Mesaba and GoJet. Gee..... tough choices there. With Mesaba 1st year FO pay, I still would have been eligible for unemployment to make up the difference between UI and my salary... courtesy of ALPA.
So what will you do for those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own? What are you gonna do for furloughees? Are you gonna take assessments to keep everyone from going to the ME in the spirit of brotherhood? How about place us into similar positions without interviews and without having to start over at below poverty wages?
Wake up! Those going abroad arent your enemy. Stop allowing 75-90 seat jets flown for wages that pay less than unemployment. Stop outsourcing your own flying! If you need to point a finger, point it at pilots going to Mesa, Republic, TransStates, GoJet, Compass, Skywest, Eagle, etc. But more importantly, point the finger at yourself for allowing those subcontractors to have grown like weeds at the expense of well-paying pilot jobs.
I swear, the ignorance and sheer stupidity found among US airline pilots is astounding.
First of all, disincentivize a well-qualified pilot from taking a job in the M.E.?! In favor of what? A $21/hour job at Mesa, an ALPA airline that used dirty and illegal tactics to push my airline and 350+ ALPA pilots on the street.... high paid ALPA pilots mind you?
Lets see... airline choices back then - Mesaba and GoJet. Gee..... tough choices there. With Mesaba 1st year FO pay, I still would have been eligible for unemployment to make up the difference between UI and my salary... courtesy of ALPA.
So what will you do for those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own? What are you gonna do for furloughees? Are you gonna take assessments to keep everyone from going to the ME in the spirit of brotherhood? How about place us into similar positions without interviews and without having to start over at below poverty wages?
Wake up! Those going abroad arent your enemy. Stop allowing 75-90 seat jets flown for wages that pay less than unemployment. Stop outsourcing your own flying! If you need to point a finger, point it at pilots going to Mesa, Republic, TransStates, GoJet, Compass, Skywest, Eagle, etc. But more importantly, point the finger at yourself for allowing those subcontractors to have grown like weeds at the expense of well-paying pilot jobs.
I swear, the ignorance and sheer stupidity found among US airline pilots is astounding.
+1
07-24-2013 | 12:46 AM
#37
On Reserve
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 121
Likes: 1
From: Left seat of a big one.
07-24-2013 | 01:12 AM
#38
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 0
From: tri current
I'm not calling those guys "scabs."
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
But those examples have been used by scabs.
It does do something to fix the problem if it dis-incentivizes well-qualified pilots from taking a job there (i.e., squeezes the labor supply at ME carriers, forcing them to increase labor costs or hire unqualified pilots.)
If a guy knows he will never be accepted into the American pilot community after he takes a job there, he might think twice about taking a job there. Let's be realistic. No one wants to spend decades there.
In any case, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we possibly can to kick ME carriers in the nuts before they do the same to us. We as more to lose than anyone (except for perhaps the elderly, overweight cat ranchers. But they can always get work doing the same job at the diner).
ME carriers are thinking strategically. So must we.
Can we agree that neither the UAW, nor any other self-respecting union, would tolerate, condone, or otherwise enable the situation we're allowing right now--guys who choose to work for our mortal enemies, welcomed back with open arms.
So when an ALPA pilot in good standing gets furloughed or his company goes out of business and no other ALPA airline will interview him where do you expect him to go?
Just curious.
Typhoonpilot
07-24-2013 | 07:01 AM
#39
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
The question was, would the UAW accept this situation.
Hell, no.
07-24-2013 | 07:07 AM
#40
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
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