The future of the industry
07-24-2013 | 12:12 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,628
Likes: 15
From: blueJet
...To answer your question, UAW wouldn't accept ALPA's idiotic end-all-be-all seniority system tying you or your compensation or your experience to one airline. Would UAW be OK with an autoworker making $95/hour and once that plant shuts down move to another making $20/hour because all of a sudden, you're an apprentice again just because you change plants?! Bullsh*t! NO OTHER UNION TREATS THEIR MEMBERS LIKE THIS! NOT ONE!
Ford can't just shut down a UAW plant and move the tooling across the street and start a new plant using non-UAW labor. Company-wide, no Ford UAW members would come to work the next day. Sure, there would be grumbling and fighting amongst the membership about how much money Ford could save, profit sharing, competing with Toyota, etc, but Ford production (and profits) would grind to a stop overnight. Of course, the UAW has no RLA.
What happened last year when an ALPA major closed their ALPA subsidiary, and sent all the "tooling" to non-ALPA competitors?
The responses ranged from:
"Gee, that's gotta be rough. I hope someone hires those poor guys" to:
"Serves those guys right. Those dirtbags were always a thorn in my side."
07-24-2013 | 09:19 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix
ALPA isn't in the same league as the UAW, and here's why...
Ford can't just shut down a UAW plant and move the tooling across the street and start a new plant using non-UAW labor. Company-wide, no Ford UAW members would come to work the next day. Sure, there would be grumbling and fighting amongst the membership about how much money Ford could save, profit sharing, competing with Toyota, etc, but Ford production (and profits) would grind to a stop overnight. Of course, the UAW has no RLA.
."
Ford can't just shut down a UAW plant and move the tooling across the street and start a new plant using non-UAW labor. Company-wide, no Ford UAW members would come to work the next day. Sure, there would be grumbling and fighting amongst the membership about how much money Ford could save, profit sharing, competing with Toyota, etc, but Ford production (and profits) would grind to a stop overnight. Of course, the UAW has no RLA.
."
Now ALPA and the airlines are a tough and different realm. There are in house union, ALPA, teamsters, none, etc.. You are only as successful as your company. Again, why I have enjoyed watching some of the in house companies do well. ALPA can't do well, they have counteracted their goal for the past twenty years. You can't represent the regionals, and also the majors.
The future of the industry? It all depends on the economy, and the buying power of the public, oil, and about a dozen other factors. But anyone that thinks the magic hiring boom and huge pay raises are behind the corner, I unfortunately think you are mistaken. I hope I am wrong.
07-25-2013 | 12:16 PM
#53
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
ALPA isn't in the same league as the UAW, and here's why...
Ford can't just shut down a UAW plant and move the tooling across the street and start a new plant using non-UAW labor. Company-wide, no Ford UAW members would come to work the next day. Sure, there would be grumbling and fighting amongst the membership about how much money Ford could save, profit sharing, competing with Toyota, etc, but Ford production (and profits) would grind to a stop overnight. Of course, the UAW has no RLA.
What happened last year when an ALPA major closed their ALPA subsidiary, and sent all the "tooling" to non-ALPA competitors?
The responses ranged from:
"Gee, that's gotta be rough. I hope someone hires those poor guys" to:
"Serves those guys right. Those dirtbags were always a thorn in my side."
Ford can't just shut down a UAW plant and move the tooling across the street and start a new plant using non-UAW labor. Company-wide, no Ford UAW members would come to work the next day. Sure, there would be grumbling and fighting amongst the membership about how much money Ford could save, profit sharing, competing with Toyota, etc, but Ford production (and profits) would grind to a stop overnight. Of course, the UAW has no RLA.
What happened last year when an ALPA major closed their ALPA subsidiary, and sent all the "tooling" to non-ALPA competitors?
The responses ranged from:
"Gee, that's gotta be rough. I hope someone hires those poor guys" to:
"Serves those guys right. Those dirtbags were always a thorn in my side."
07-25-2013 | 12:28 PM
#54
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
... and what is happening now in Detroit? Or how about Boeing moving an assembly plant to South Carolina? Naaaah, those unions are unbeatable. With an unemployment rate in the USA of 7+%, if any big corporation offers jobs to non-union workers in a depressed part of the country at a fraction of what they were making in... say Detroit... people will line up for miles to get a piece of it. I am guessing that you yourself will be one of thousands of applications at Delta Air Lines, even if we have the weakest stupidest union in the history of mankind. Why is that?
Aside from the smart a$$ comment, there is far more to the topics than we are going to touch on here.
Suffice it to say, I believe my son who is 8 will have to be an expat to have opportunities similar to what I had here at home.
07-25-2013 | 01:18 PM
#55
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 0
From: UAL retired
Definition of capitalism (n)
Bing Dictionary
cap·i·tal·ism
[ káppit'l ìzzəm ]
I, for one, think most Americans would be loathe to give up weekends, holidays, paid vacation, unemployment insurance, disability insurance, and a whole host of other benefits all of which came from the hard work of union organizers that worked under threat of death to themselves and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Not until Milton Friedman came along in the late 1970s did we, as hard working Americans, think that profit motivation should surpass all other considerations. Today even the lowly ERJ pilot will espouse a capitalistic mantra that market economics are the savior of the world, and unions are the devil's own spawn. Do you really WANT to work like a dog and have no respect from the managers or do you just think that that is your only choice because if you don't someone else will?
Bing Dictionary
cap·i·tal·ism
[ káppit'l ìzzəm ]
- free-market system: an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, characterized by a free competitive market and motivation by profit.
I, for one, think most Americans would be loathe to give up weekends, holidays, paid vacation, unemployment insurance, disability insurance, and a whole host of other benefits all of which came from the hard work of union organizers that worked under threat of death to themselves and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Not until Milton Friedman came along in the late 1970s did we, as hard working Americans, think that profit motivation should surpass all other considerations. Today even the lowly ERJ pilot will espouse a capitalistic mantra that market economics are the savior of the world, and unions are the devil's own spawn. Do you really WANT to work like a dog and have no respect from the managers or do you just think that that is your only choice because if you don't someone else will?
07-26-2013 | 01:56 AM
#58
Permanent Reserve
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Shore leave
I refuse to believe you're this stupid. No offense.
First of all, disincentivize a well-qualified pilot from taking a job in the M.E.?! In favor of what? A $21/hour job at Mesa, an ALPA airline that used dirty and illegal tactics to push my airline and 350+ ALPA pilots on the street.... high paid ALPA pilots mind you?
Lets see... airline choices back then - Mesaba and GoJet. Gee..... tough choices there. With Mesaba 1st year FO pay, I still would have been eligible for unemployment to make up the difference between UI and my salary... courtesy of ALPA.
So what will you do for those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own? What are you gonna do for furloughees? Are you gonna take assessments to keep everyone from going to the ME in the spirit of brotherhood? How about place us into similar positions without interviews and without having to start over at below poverty wages?
Wake up! Those going abroad arent your enemy. Stop allowing 75-90 seat jets flown for wages that pay less than unemployment. Stop outsourcing your own flying! If you need to point a finger, point it at pilots going to Mesa, Republic, TransStates, GoJet, Compass, Skywest, Eagle, etc. But more importantly, point the finger at yourself for allowing those subcontractors to have grown like weeds at the expense of well-paying pilot jobs.
I swear, the ignorance and sheer stupidity found among US airline pilots is astounding.
First of all, disincentivize a well-qualified pilot from taking a job in the M.E.?! In favor of what? A $21/hour job at Mesa, an ALPA airline that used dirty and illegal tactics to push my airline and 350+ ALPA pilots on the street.... high paid ALPA pilots mind you?
Lets see... airline choices back then - Mesaba and GoJet. Gee..... tough choices there. With Mesaba 1st year FO pay, I still would have been eligible for unemployment to make up the difference between UI and my salary... courtesy of ALPA.
So what will you do for those who lose their jobs through no fault of their own? What are you gonna do for furloughees? Are you gonna take assessments to keep everyone from going to the ME in the spirit of brotherhood? How about place us into similar positions without interviews and without having to start over at below poverty wages?
Wake up! Those going abroad arent your enemy. Stop allowing 75-90 seat jets flown for wages that pay less than unemployment. Stop outsourcing your own flying! If you need to point a finger, point it at pilots going to Mesa, Republic, TransStates, GoJet, Compass, Skywest, Eagle, etc. But more importantly, point the finger at yourself for allowing those subcontractors to have grown like weeds at the expense of well-paying pilot jobs.
I swear, the ignorance and sheer stupidity found among US airline pilots is astounding.
07-26-2013 | 07:02 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
None of you chest-thumpers on here were willing to shut it all down when the pensions and scope were under attack. Quite the opposite, you folded like a house of cards, so it became totally obvious that NOTHING is sacred anymore, and everything was ripe for the taking...
These two tools give management complete and supreme power to use as needed to gut contracts and impoverish pilots. When management can unilaterally dictate pay and work rules, and our only tools (strike and/or slowdown) are declared illegal by the courts, bought and paid for by airline executives... then we are screwed.
Unions can do very little so long as the RLA remains the law of the land. A job action is our only option to influence negotiations, and that tool has been removed from our tool chest.
07-26-2013 | 10:01 AM
#60
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Is Charleston SC a depressed part of the country? It doesn't seem like it to me.
Aside from the smart a$$ comment, there is far more to the topics than we are going to touch on here.
Suffice it to say, I believe my son who is 8 will have to be an expat to have opportunities similar to what I had here at home.
Aside from the smart a$$ comment, there is far more to the topics than we are going to touch on here.
Suffice it to say, I believe my son who is 8 will have to be an expat to have opportunities similar to what I had here at home.
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